【08.11.3 英】博客;苏格兰教会领袖支持糟糕的独生子女政策
【08.11.3英国电讯报】Damian Thompson 博客【标题】苏格兰教会领袖支持中国糟糕的独生子女政策
【来源】http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2008/11/03/moderator_of_church_of_scotland_backs_chinas_disgusting_onechild_policy
【翻译】宜笑
【原文和译文】
Moderator of Church of Scotland backs China's disgusting one-child policy
苏格兰教会领袖支持中国糟糕的独生子女政策
The Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, the Rt Rev David Lunan, has praised China's one-child policy on the grounds that it is good for the environment. What a revolting thing for a church leader to say - and what an insult to ordinary members of the Kirk, who now find their denomination supporting a grotesque abuse of human rights.
苏格兰长老教会会员大会的主席，牧师大卫鲁南，称赞中国的独生子女政策对环境有利。一个教会领袖说出这样的话来，真是让人憎恶！这对苏格兰教会的会员是一个多么大冒犯啊！现在他们发现自己的教会竟然支持一种荒唐的践踏人权的行为。
This is what the egregious Lunan said to the BBC: "Interestingly enough, the country that is doing the most for the planet is China. People talk about the smoke and pollution from China, but they have limited their population in a way that no other country has or will, and that in itself will have an effect on not using up the Earth's resources."
可恶的Lunan对BBC说：“很有意思，为这个星球做得最多的国家就是中国。人们都说烟尘和污染来自中国，但中国已经采取了一种其他国家没有采用过未来也不会采取的方法在控制人口了， 这本身对防止地球资源被耗尽将有很大的作用。
China has "limited its population" by the criminal abuse of parents who exercise their God-given right to have more than one child. No one knows the full extent of forced abortions and infanticide in China as a result of this tyranny - but, hey, the Moderator isn't worried because these unborn - or dead - children are "not using up the Earth's resources".
中国通过剥夺父母的生儿育女的天赋权利这种违法的方式来“限制人口。” 没有人知道由于这种苛政，中国强制流产和杀婴的程度。但是，嘿，我们的领袖却并不焦虑，因为这些尚未出生的或死亡的孩子“不会耗尽地球上的资源”。
The Catholic Church in Scotland has quite rightly condemned Lunan's comments. And I hope that Cardinal O'Brien, a doughty defender of the unborn child, has picked up the phone to tell the Moderator exactly what he thinks of him. I don't know much about the internal government of the Church of Scotland, but surely a resignation is in order.
苏格兰的天主教会绝对有必要谴责Lunan的言论。我希望，未出世孩子的坚定的捍卫者，红衣主教O'Brien，已经打电话明确告诉我们的领袖他的想法。虽然我对苏格兰教会内部的制度了解不多，但是按照条例来讲他应该被撤职。
由于是个人的博客，所以表达的感情色彩比较强烈，而我最感兴趣的是人们的评论。这篇博客的评论到目前为止有117条，估计我们可以以此略窥老外对中国政策方面的理解和态度。（今天先翻译了博文，评论今天暂时没空翻译了，先贴上一些。不好意思，请容我逐步补上吧。）
各位如果感兴趣，也请来帮忙翻译一下吧。顺便练习一下英语，呵呵o3O118) 。（我先领1-5条评论哈）
评论：
1.
Better the population grows above the carrying capacity of the planet and we all exercise our God given right to starve? Of ALL the organizations on earth the one with, arguably, the least authority to preach on matters of population control is the Catholic Church.
Al Hamilton
November 03, 2008
05:11 PM GMT
2.
As you so rightly say Damian "I don't know much about the internal government of the Church of Scotland". The moderator is not a protestant pope - as the Church of Scotland's website states "no one person or group within the Church has more influence or say than any other" and "The Church does not have one person who acts as the head of faith, as that role is the Lord God's."
I know this is heady stuff for Catholics but the moderator's opinion is just that - his - and the "denomination" as you call it is in no way bound by what he says. The job of the moderator - elected each year - is to chair the annual general assembly and carry out ceremonial visits in his or her (yep ladies too) year of office.
That said, the moderator is a plonker - he has four kids of his own!
Peter51
November 03, 2008
05:12 PM GMT
3.
ouch! good point
population, no i mean over-population is certainly one of the pressures of the last days, that we are certainly living in.
Mr Chipfat
November 03, 2008
05:14 PM GMT
4.
Peter51, when I said I didn't know much about the internal government of the Kirk, I didn't mean that I didn't know what the Moderator does. I've attended and reported on the General Assembly enough times, God knows.
Damian Thompson
November 03, 2008
05:17 PM GMT
5.
But it was only a week ago that the Bishops' Conference of England and Wales promoted a Green Youth Day where Banners arguing for 'Sustainability' were paraded everywhere....
It's unimaginably diabolical.
They still promulgate the malthusian fallacy as if it held any scientific validity or moral worth ; may God forgive them.
I have family members who belong to the Church of scotland ; I am certain they would dissociate themselves from such sentiments ; and be appalled that anyone among them would promote such a heinous proposition - let alone their General Assembly Moderator.
onthesideoftheangels
November 03, 2008
05:20 PM GMT
6.
I’d like to see these anti-Christian ‘Christians’ evangelise the good news of contraception and abortion to the Muslims. How long would they last? If such ‘policies’ are truly good then their proponents should seek their implementation where the ‘problem’ is greatest. For climate change the abstinence from technology should be sought in India or China not Britain with it’s tiny population For population control, the policy of reduced birth rates should be advocated in those areas with high birth rates, Muslim lands not the already aborting and contraception West.
Shocking but not surprising: Protestantism is a path of errors leading away from God. A 'one Church' policy is our only hope.
Marcel
November 03, 2008
05:39 PM GMT
7.
OK Damian so why pretend that the Moderator's words mean that the Church of Scotland supports this policy? Just mischief making as usual. Even OTSOTA puts you right.
Peter51
November 03, 2008
05:52 PM GMT
8.
The role of Moderator is a yearly appointment, right? There have been some outstanding Moderators, but in a smallish pool there are going to be some smallish fish being promoted. At least it's only for a year.
calleva
November 03, 2008
05:52 PM GMT
9.
Correct Calleva - moderators are very "diverse". By the way, I think that the demographic transition is a good thing and a normal feature of economic development which must not and need not be brought about at the point of a gun - when people's kids stop dying in droves they tend to have fewer children.
Peter51
November 03, 2008
05:59 PM GMT
10.
It is obvious to all that are capable of lucid thought that the biggest problem facing the world is overpopulation. It has been forecast, that in the not too distant future, there will be wars over water, fuel and food. It is only necessary to look at Africa to see the results of large populations and inadequate agriculture. Why condemn China for having the foresight to see the problem, and the courage to act upon it. There is after all a thing known as birth control.
Anthony Bootle
November 03, 2008
06:13 PM GMT
11.
Listen Anthony - prosecuting and ruining people who have children "without permission" , forced abortions? No thanks
Peter51
November 03, 2008
06:27 PM GMT
12.
Isn't the Kirk is a presbyterian outfit founded by that former galley slave, John Knox? What would Knox and Calvin think of the moderator's comments?
LeoXIII
November 03, 2008
06:42 PM GMT
13.
"Ye will have had yer tea, Mr Fu, ah dinnae want to be boiling that kettle again the nicht, ye cannae keep up wi they elctric bills noo adays. An remember its no good fur the planet an aw' that. For aw' that a hope ye'll be wearing an overcoat on Rabbie if yer "visiting" Mrs Fu, nudge, nudge, ye ken whit ah mean, eh Mr Fu. Ye cannae hey all them bairns eatin all the rice, whit are my "Parishoners" gonnae eat if all youse Wily Oriental Gentlemen scoff all the vittles. If only ye could learn tae eat yir dog, without the rice, ye would be saving me an awfy lot o' hassle, that O'brien, the "Jungle Jim" wa' the Roman Idolatrous Church is fair bittin' ma ear over me an my God given right, to state that the lower orders on the planet shoold be drowning ther superfloous bairns in a sack...!!!. Better than leaving them on the street I'd have thought, they get eaten by the dogs an' then youse get looking for your elevenses.....Whit is that yer saying, you hivnae had Yer Tea.....well why didn't ye say that before. In that case Go on get out of here, what dae ye take this place fur....A Lyons Tea Hoose..!!! get on yer rickshaw pal, you an yer 100 billion bairns. Bluddy cheek coming round here an' disturbin' the divout.
Crouchback
November 03, 2008
07:04 PM GMT
14.
Just goes to show why Catholics believe in a One True Church policy.
Loz
November 03, 2008
07:22 PM GMT
15.
Loony Lunan's pronouncements are an insult to the Chinese.
As DT says " no knows the full extent of forced abortions and infanticide" .
yorkshire rose
November 03, 2008
07:29 PM GMT
16.
OH yes. I heard a prominent Catholic recently speak to a wide audience about how we have failed to grasp the wonder of China's ability to feed it's many millions. Their solution: the one child policy, has worked, he claimed. And what does the West do ? criticise it, whilst falling into economic recession itself.
It was a very interesting subversion of the truth. But lots of people (mainly Catholics) clapped.
I'm guessing the bloke had a free pass to the Olympic Games. In the process, his reasoning faculties were removed in exchange for a few goody bags and some Dim Sung.
Next.
bernadette
November 03, 2008
07:37 PM GMT
17.
Damian,
Your propensity for digging up stories of interest reminds one of a Fox Terrier rather than a ferret. In the words of Columbanus Hibernus, from his first letter to Gregory the Great, 'Canis vivus in hoc problemate leone mortuo'; i.e. 'Better a living dog than a dead Lion.'
Thank you!
Filioque
November 03, 2008
07:57 PM GMT
18.
As long as Catholic priests limit themselves to only one child I'm not complaining.
Cumanus
November 03, 2008
08:01 PM GMT
19.
Peter-Peter-Peter
How I would like once...just once...to read something you've said without getting the feeling I've just gargled with raw sewage....
onthesideoftheangels
November 03, 2008
08:43 PM GMT
20.
Birth control, now there's a nice way of saying murder. Has Peter heard of the forced labour camps for religious people (Falun Gong, Catholics, Christians, Buddhists, anyone who dissents) and the harvesting of organs to be sold and sent to the West?
www.propagandamatrix.com/...
Loz
November 03, 2008
09:36 PM GMT
[ 本帖最后由 妩人少将 于 2008-11-5 14:32 编辑 ] 21.
Anthony Bootle:
Loathsome views of your kind are made trebly worse both by the shroud of total ignorance covering your inanity, and the hatred of humanity your opinions express.
As I have pointed out to Peter51 before, who has also swallowed the lies about the 'over-populated world' rubbish, the truth is almost exactly the oppoite: the world is in fact mostly empty. Take a look at your maps, it's not difficult.
The savage Chinese system not only directly leads to the enforced murder of millions of unborn infants, but has grotesquely unbalanced the sexes in China so that more than 100 million young Chinese men will never find a mate. There is also increasing evidence of the psychological damage caused by this montrous intrusion into the dignity and freedom of the family, because of the lack of playmates of an equivalent age within the family.
What is it about the Scots? There's this moron of a Calvinist; and weren't the major proponents of the evil philosophy of utilitarianism Scots?
God, grant us a Catholic world soon! Lord, come quickly!
I now await the hand-wringing agonising of Ubi Tabletas and his side-kick Gerard.
Benedict Carter
November 03, 2008
09:45 PM GMT
22.
The entire human population of the world would fit onto an area the size of the Isle of Wight.
FitzP
November 03, 2008
09:59 PM GMT
23.
I don t know why anyone would be surprised at this.A church that believes in pre-destination is capable of anything.
Kenneth
November 03, 2008
10:21 PM GMT
24.
Perhaps the time is now long overdue for the Scottish Bishops to review the very large sums of money and extensive resources which they plough into ecumenical
initiatives which are going nowhere.
Paul J
November 03, 2008
11:56 PM GMT
25.
Trust BC and OTOSSA to try and pick an unnecessary fight. Raw sewage - wow! What is their problem?
Peter51
November 04, 2008
12:16 AM GMT
26.
FitzP
Nobody is suggesting that the population has a shortage of space to stand. What it is does have is a shortage of space for sustainable agriculture.
Are there problems with the implementation of the one child policy? Yes. But throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the answer (whoops! inappropriate analogy).
Al Hamilton
November 04, 2008
12:46 AM GMT
27.
What is my problem Peter ?
Just the regular - trying to fight evil and save souls as I pass upon life's weary way...
Then people like you and Al come along with your opinions resembling a pernicious thoughtless genocidal agenda - and I just can't understand how people can think that way...
I think Nicholas once said I was a waste of entropy ; to which I responded 'isn't that a tautology'...
My problem is you Peter...I don't understand how you can think the way you do...you terrify me...I think your opinions are inhuman beyond imagining - and I cannot understand any human being ever supporting them...but you lot do !
onthesideoftheangels
November 04, 2008
01:21 AM GMT
28.
Protestants are still heretics. It's gotten no better with time.
Chris
November 04, 2008
01:22 AM GMT
29.
Al Hamilton - we'll believe you're serious about zpg when you remove yourself from the gene pool.
Chris
November 04, 2008
01:23 AM GMT
30.
Anthony Pootle: "It is obvious to all that are capable of lucid thought that the biggest problem facing the world is overpopulation."
There there.... No need to work up an appetite! Next time you get an infection of some sort, refuse to take antibiotics. You may indeed die, but think how much better off the world will be.
Chris
November 04, 2008
01:29 AM GMT
31.
Rt Rev David Lunan
An ideal candidate for a Darwin Award:
www.darwinawards.com/
Noote
November 04, 2008
01:51 AM GMT
32.
Allowing the olympics to be held in China was a travesty. That country is the biggest human rights violater out there. The one child policy is just one manifestation of that. It just translates into the one child.. many abortions policy.
The population in many parts of the world are actually in a state of stagnancy(or even decreasing). A prime example of this would be Russia or many of the nations of Europe. With Russia's rapid conversion from its hopeless atheism, things are actually improving on that front.
There is a whole lot of empty space in this world, and plenty of untapped resources. Oil is a great example. The price of oil is no longer based soley on supply and demand. Its not high because we are running out of it. A large percentage is based on speculation. There is a reason that the amount of oil in saudi arabia is a state secret.... perhaps because it will not run out in the next 1000 years...
Right or wrong, when we as society look at these arguments about resource shortages, life becomes a potential target. we start turning potential food into car fuel, the problem is not the starving people who have "too many" babies, its the industry that turned food into an expensive commodity and predatory international banks that purposely sink poor nations deep in debt as a form of slavery, its the modern form of usury.
The world overpopulation argument is soley there to justify an attack on life.
Because LIFE becomes the problem.
Irenaeus
November 04, 2008
02:07 AM GMT
33.
Chris, apparently for you the Isle of White will not be big enough to house all the straw men you brought to the argument.
Al Hamilton
November 04, 2008
02:07 AM GMT
34.
His statement is horrific on many levels...the tyranny, the forced sterilizations and abortions, the gratitude that foreigners are limiting their populations in accordance with Western political correctness regarding the evils of human existence. Because, God knows, when it comes to overpopulation, those dirty foreigners and all their babies are the cause of all the world's problems.
Bu on U
November 04, 2008
04:00 AM GMT
35.
I've said it before, and i'll say it again: Protestantism generally, and Calvinism in particular, are "religions" straight from the haemorroihdical anus of Satan himself.
David from Oz
November 04, 2008
04:20 AM GMT
36.
That goes for Islam, too.
David from Oz
November 04, 2008
04:22 AM GMT
37.
Though slightly tangential, I am reminded of the old joke about why presbyterians are opposed to sex (because it leads to dancing).
The world overpopulation argument is a way to avoid responsibility. Rather than do something about the fact that lots of people are starving, we simply prefer to eliminate the starving. Quite typical of a sentimental society, really. I mean, why would Mr. Hefner want to share his world with a bunch of starving smelly Africans and Asians?
Then, there is the "sex without consequence" (oops, I meant "punishment") mentality. Abandon the transcendent value of the human life, and you can do whatever you like.
We must remember too that the pagan deities typically were associated with woods and dells, and one cannot engage in nature worship without human sacrifice.
Qua myth, "overpopulation" is an extremely useful indeed. Don't knock it.
kmnewman
November 04, 2008
05:09 AM GMT
38.
So which belief that I expressed was such a problem OTSOTA - my rejection of China's policies, my description of the moderator as a twerp or my factually correct observation that in developed economies in which children don't die in great numbers in infancy the birth rate is lower than in poor countries with high mortality rates?
I think you are losing it a bit just now.
Peter51
November 04, 2008
10:00 AM GMT
39.
Irenaeus:
"With Russia's rapid conversion from its hopeless atheism, things are actually improving on that front."
Have to take issue with just this part of your excellent post. The rise in the number of babies being born in Russia has had nothing whatsoever to do with any conversion - because there has been no conversion. It has everything to do with the new hope in society born of a high oil price for a few years and Putin's rhetoric.
Even so, your thesis stands, because the rise in the birth rate is still eclipsed by the death rate, although one notes also that male life expectancy HAS also risen to 61 (!).
Russia is a profoundly pagan and superstitious nation with elements thrown in of Christianity and even more elements of the new western religion of consumption, hedonism and selfishness.
If they worship anything, Russians worship power (for dominance over others), then money.
Benedict Carter
November 04, 2008
10:10 AM GMT
40.
They loathe Catholics,take a trip to Dornock,as a Catholic you're as welcomed as a Jew in Chester Cathedral.
Jusjacqueline
November 04, 2008
11:25 AM GMT
独生子女政策是舍小家顾大家的伟大举措。
杀婴？？？？谁？？？？达赖还播过婴儿人皮做祭祀，李傲有话说里讲过，有书籍记载。这帮老外总爱从嘴里放污染人权的空气呢？！经济越发达怎么人越愚昧呢？！[ 本帖最后由 大斌斌 于 2008-11-5 14:19 编辑 ] 留个记号，以后看翻译o3O119) 西人真傻！
这个傻可不是傻的可爱的“傻”！
而是傻的可怜的“傻”，傻的愚蠢的“傻”！真想开了这些蠢猪的瓢！ 翻一下啊`` 6.
I’d like to see these anti-Christian ‘Christians’ evangelise the good news of contraception and abortion to the Muslims. How long would they last? If such ‘policies’ are truly good then their proponents should seek their implementation where the ‘problem’ is greatest. For climate change the abstinence from technology should be sought in India or China not Britain with it’s tiny population For population control, the policy of reduced birth rates should be advocated in those areas with high birth rates, Muslim lands not the already aborting and contraception West.
Shocking but not surprising: Protestantism is a path of errors leading away from God. A 'one Church' policy is our only hope.
Marcel
November 03, 2008
05:39 PM GMT
我很乐意看到那些反基督的“基督徒”带着这些避孕和流产的好新闻向穆斯林们布道，他们会坚持多久呢？如果这些“政策”真的非常好，那么它的支持者们应该在这些“问题”最严重的地区寻求执行。从气候变化来说，中国和印度更应该节育，而不是本来人口就少的英国。应该在那些人口出生率高的地区实行减少人口出生率的政策，比如穆斯林地区，而不是本来就已经有流产和避孕的西方。
7.
OK Damian so why pretend that the Moderator's words mean that the Church of Scotland supports this policy? Just mischief making as usual. Even OTSOTA puts you right.
Peter51
November 03, 2008
05:52 PM GMT
OK，Damian,为什么要假扮主教的口气说苏格兰教堂支持这项政策？别跟平常一样恶搞，甚至OTSOTA去纠正你的时候。
8.
The role of Moderator is a yearly appointment, right? There have been some outstanding Moderators, but in a smallish pool there are going to be some smallish fish being promoted. At least it's only for a year.
calleva
November 03, 2008
05:52 PM GMT
主教是每年一换的，对吗？是有一些主教很杰出，但是在小地方总是会有小人物被选上的，至少那也只是一年而已。
9.
Correct Calleva - moderators are very "diverse". By the way, I think that the demographic transition is a good thing and a normal feature of economic development which must not and need not be brought about at the point of a gun - when people's kids stop dying in droves they tend to have fewer children.
Peter51
November 03, 2008
05:59 PM GMT
纠正一下Calleva—主教与主教间是有很大“不同”的，顺便说一下，我认为人口政策的转变是经济发展的一个正常反应。不需要也不应该把它当魔鬼一样看待。当人们的孩子不再成群的死去的时候，他们往往会少要孩子。（译注：这个意思大概是指生得多的原因是怕生少了死了就没了）
10.
It is obvious to all that are capable of lucid thought that the biggest problem facing the world is overpopulation. It has been forecast, that in the not too distant future, there will be wars over water, fuel and food. It is only necessary to look at Africa to see the results of large populations and inadequate agriculture. Why condemn China for having the foresight to see the problem, and the courage to act upon it. There is after all a thing known as birth control.
Anthony Bootle
November 03, 2008
06:13 PM GMT
很明显，大多数人都清醒的认识到这个世界最大的问题是人口过量。这个问题早就被人预见到了，在不久的将来，将会发生为争夺水、能源和食物的战争。只要看看非洲因为人口过量而农业生产却赶不上的结果就明白了。为什么要指责中国在这个问题上的先见之明，而且还要加速这个问题的发生。避免这个问题发生的方法就是众所周知的节育。 原帖由 noonoo 于 2008-11-5 15:06 发表 http://bbs.m4.cn/images/common/back.gif
6.
I’d like to see these anti-Christian ‘Christians’ evangelise the good news of contraception and abortion to the Muslims. How long would they last? If such ‘policies’ are truly good then their...
给你加5分`找版主要啊.呵呵 翻译～ 我们要翻译～～ 没本事，找个最简单的
11.
Listen Anthony - prosecuting and ruining people who have children "without permission" , forced abortions? No thanks
Peter51
November 03, 2008
06:27 PM GMT
听着Anthony，“控告和迫害”那些“未批生育“的人民，
强制堕胎？不，还是谢谢了
12.
Isn't the Kirk is a presbyterian outfit founded by that former galley slave, John Knox? What would Knox and Calvin think of the moderator's comments?
LeoXIII
November 03, 2008
06:42 PM GMT
苏格兰教会不是那个曾经军舰上的俘虏，John Knox建立起来的长老宗组织么?Knox和Calvin对于主席（鲁南）的这些评论会怎么想呢？
加尔文宗（Calvinists）又称长老宗、归正宗，是新教主要宗派之一，是以加尔文的宗教思想为依据的各教会的统称。它强调信徒因信仰而得救；《圣经》是信仰的唯一源泉；相信上帝预定论，即人得救全凭上帝的预定，自己无能为力；基督只为“选民”而死；不相信圣餐中的饼酒是耶稣的肉体和血，反对婴儿受洗；屏弃祭台、圣像、祭礼；主张由教徒推选长老和牧师共同治理教会。加尔文宗于16世纪欧洲宗教改革时期产生于瑞士，后来逐渐传布到荷兰、法国、英国、东南欧国家和北美等地。在基督教传教运动的过程中，它又传入亚、非、拉地区。鸦片战争后传入中国。
[ 本帖最后由 simon999 于 2008-11-8 21:32 编辑 ] 一开始就主观臆断独生子女政策是糟糕的,脑子长了结石,顽固不化.
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