[黑丝首飞——印度+ 巴基斯坦 高水平评论]（转载）
【译文-中文】[黑丝专题] [黑丝首飞——印度+ 巴基斯坦 高水平评论]【原文-印度】印度 巴基斯坦 门户网站、军事论坛 分类翻译贴【原文地址】：http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3827&start=3920
【发布日期】：2011-01-11
【翻译截止日期】：2011-01-16 22:41:43
【翻译评论数/总评论】：120+ / 数千
【翻译作者】：solar115
【联名作者】：nonchalantking 康康Tainy
译文导读：在美防长访华之际，黑丝带首飞成功，立时成为国内外热议话题。我们的邻居印度和巴基斯坦的反应自然也都是很强烈。为此，我们特意在印巴两国多个门户网站、军事论坛搜集相关评论，从数千条评论中挑选了一些比较有代表性的列出来翻译。不同的网站聚集的是不同的人群，有的欢乐有的深刻，不妨看看他们对黑丝带首飞成功都有什么样的评论。
2007-1-11，导弹反卫星试验成功。
2010-1-11，中段拦截弹道导弹试验成功。
2011-1-11，国产第四代战斗机歼-20首飞成功。
面对这样重大的突破，PTF的黑丝首飞专题挑选了美国、日本、韩国、俄罗斯、澳大利亚、德国、巴基斯坦、印度、台湾和香港等国家和地区的相关评论进行翻译，横向比较各国网上的评论。专题的第一阶段主要是翻译各个国家主流门户网站对于J-20成功首飞的报道和普通网民的评论。即将开始的第二阶段则关注一些主流国家和重要地位国家专业军事论坛的帖子。
对于印巴两国，由于历史和现实的原因，活跃而有深度的评论往往出现在军事论坛上。为此，印巴翻译贴也许是处于黑丝专题两个阶段的过渡区间，我们既挑选了两家主流门户网站新闻后的评论，也挑选了几个军事论坛的讨论，从数千条评论中挑选了一些比较有代表性的列出来翻译。
其中，印度的rediff和印度时报属于门户网站和主流媒体的新闻稿，其中的回帖充满着欢乐，我们放在头和尾。DFI和bharat-rakshak是印度的热门军事论坛，前者相对混杂，有军事高手也有喷子；后一个相对客观（类似FY CD而非TX ZH），甚至有千余词的长文【译者：……】，我们把这两个军坛放在中间。另外说，由于中巴的友好关系，巴基斯坦的论坛言论比较趋于一致，而且很多是来自中国的评论，所以我们只选取了一个军坛作为代表，放在最前面。
【转帖请注意保留原帖地址：爬山虎网帖翻译 http://www.ptfcn.com/ptfcn/js/232/ 】
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【黑色原文，蓝色译文，红色为译者的吐槽】
评论集1：巴基斯坦防务论坛 http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/index.php?showtopic=92215&pid=1284343&mode=threaded&start= ————————————————————
Marchpole Powered by Chinese engines：使用的中国引擎： (IMG:http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_1101/27_103597_167ea39704dfba7.jpg) (IMG:http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_1101/27_103597_5f1c1cd3ce38919.jpg) ————————————————————
faizan khaliq
Today, 02:14 AM who needs third rated technology from Amreeka now I think defense cooperation with USA has lost all the charm for Pakistanhere we can hope to get but there we can,t dream to get F-35 or raptor陷在谁还需要哪些美国佬的三流技术？我觉得和美国进行的国防合作对巴基斯坦来说已经毫无吸引力了。和中国合作，我们能得到我们想要的，而和美国合作，得到F35或者猛禽连做梦都不可能。————————————————————
Martian
Today, 03:02 AM Beautiful pictures of China's J-20 Stealth Fighter in the airJ20在空中的美丽照片： (IMG:http://i.imgur.com/02700.jpg) (IMG:http://i.imgur.com/8912r.jpg) Note: Thank you to "maozedong" and "dingyibvs" for the pictures.注;感谢网友“maozedong”和“dingyibvs”的照片。
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Martian
Today, 03:13 AM Videos of China's J-20 Stealth Fighter in flight中国J20的飞行视频：http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfPbf3Ob_1MAction starts at 3:31 in the video.在视频的3:31起开始试飞：http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRoUY2A0-Vs
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Archangelesk99
Today, 03:49 AM That engine is most curious!!! I would guess it's a 150K thrust minimal engine of ws-10a core, might even be the 180K ws-15. From what's seen so far this plane is about what f-22 was in year 2000 and already superior to f-35. Another 5 years should see this jet-fighter surpass f-22 levels in all areas. Reports are also coming of a j-16 4.5 generation craft superior to eurofighter and all 4th generation planes and less expensive than j-20. Should be a prototype flight soon!!!引擎室最令人好奇的部分！！！我猜是最小150千牛推力的WS-10A。也可能是180千牛的WS-15。从目前的情况看，这架飞机相当于F-22在2000年的水准，依然超越F-35。只需再过5年，我们就能看到这架飞机全面超越F-22。还有些关于J-16，一种4.5代战机的报道。那架飞机将超越欧洲战机和所有四代战机，价格将比J20略便宜。估计不久就该有原型机了！
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Best of the Best
Today, 04:25 AM 引用QUOTE (Archangelesk99 @ Jan 11 2011, 04:49 AM) That engine is most curious!!! I would guess it's a 150K thrust minimal engine of ws-10a core, might even be the 180K ws-15. From what's seen so far this plane is about what f-22 was in year 2000 and already superior to f-35. Another 5 years should see this jet-fighter surpass f-22 levels in all areas. Reports are also coming of a j-16 4.5 generation craft superior to eurofighter and all 4th generation planes and less expensive than j-20. Should be a prototype flight soon!!! Can you please help me understand why is that hatch thing opened even during high speed taxi's and also during flight whats the purpose of that hatch can you kindly help me, i have thought and thought and thought but nothing comes to my mind, what is its purpose to be exact and why ? 你能帮我弄清楚，为什么那个舱门一直开着，就连在高速滑行测试中也没关起来？那个舱门的设计目的是什么？你能好心替我解释下么？我已经想了好久好久，但什么答案也没有。到底那东西是干嘛的？为什么一直打开着？ ————————————————————
Archangelesk99
Today, 04:28 AM 引用QUOTE (Archangelesk99 @ Jan 11 2011, 03:49 AM) That engine is most curious!!! I would guess it's a 150K thrust minimal engine of ws-10a core, might even be the 180K ws-15. From what's seen so far this plane is about what f-22 was in year 2000 and already superior to f-35. Another 5 years should see this jet-fighter surpass f-22 levels in all areas. Reports are also coming of a j-16 4.5 generation craft superior to eurofighter and all 4th generation planes and less expensive than j-20. Should be a prototype flight soon!!!QUOTE (Best of the Best @ Jan 11 2011, 04:25 AM) Can you please help me understand why is that hatch thing opened even during high speed taxi's and also during flight whats the purpose of that hatch can you kindly help me, i have thought and thought and thought but nothing comes to my mind, what is its purpose to be exact and why ? Hello, I'm not an expert on military weapons but I suppose it is that the wheels are not retracted for safety reasons. The front looks like a landing gear bay. Not sure of the side ones but they also look like they store the side wheels. They probably don't want to take a risk that the landing gear mechanism will not operate or some other problem might develop and don't want the pilot to worry about being able to land safely哈罗，我不是军事武器专家，但我猜起落架没收起的原因是出于安全考虑。前面那个看起来像是起落架舱，旁边的是什么不太确定，但他们看起来像是用来收起侧轮的。他们也许是不想冒起落架系统失灵的险，或者是会发生什么故障，飞行员会为能否安全降落而焦虑。
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Dizasta
Today, 04:45 AM ^^ I concur, the F-35's first flight was also with wheels down! On another note, could anyone please confirm whether the J-20's design envisages Vector-Thrust? Could be a possibility that the design would include TVC-Nozzles, before the J-20 enters full-rate production? 我同意，F35首飞也没收起落架另外，有没有人能断定，j20的设计是否有设想矢量推力？有没有可能在j-20进入全速生产前加上矢量喷口？ ————————————————————
marshall
Today, 04:46 AM 引用QUOTE (Archangelesk99 @ Jan 11 2011, 04:49 AM) That engine is most curious!!! I would guess it's a 150K thrust minimal engine of ws-10a core, might even be the 180K ws-15. From what's seen so far this plane is about what f-22 was in It sounds like you're referring to the double-overlap nozzle which suggests some sort of WS-10A turbofan variant. Rumors are floating around that it's a WS-10G derivative, but too early to tell at this point. What is almost certain is that it is not a 117S/AL-41 Russian turbofan, which has been suggested repeatedly. As I predicted last year, the first J-XX/J-20 prototypes will probably use a WS-10A engine derivative while the WS-15 turbofan is still in early development. Considering the WS-15 prototype turbofan is rumored to have successfully tested last year, it will probably begin flight testing onboard the J-20 earlier than thought.貌似你指的是双交叠喷口意味着是涡扇10A的某个升级版本。据说这是涡扇10改的演进版，但现在就不能断言。几乎可以肯定的是，这不是之前常猜测的俄罗斯的117s或者al-41发动机。正如我去年预测的，新丝带的原型很可能会用涡扇-10A的演进版发动机，而涡扇-15仍处于早期研发状态。考虑到涡扇-15的原型据说在去年已经成功测试了，那么它装上J-20的时间很可能会比预计的更早。 If this J-20 is indeed using the WS-10G turbofan, then there will not be any hurry to begin flight testing with the WS-15 turbofan. News is that the WS-15 has only realized ~90% of its designed thrust so it is only able to deliver a bit over 160KN now vs. ~150KN for the WS-10G.如果这架j-20的确是用涡扇-10改，那么就没必要着急装上涡扇-15来试飞。有消息说，涡扇-15的推力只达到了设计指标的90%，那么它只160KN，只比现有的150KN的涡扇10改稍多一点。 引用QUOTE (Archangelesk99 @ Jan 11 2011, 04:49 AM) year 2000 and already superior to f-35. Another 5 years should see this jet-fighter surpass f-22 levels in all areas. Reports are also coming of a j-16 4.5 generation craft superior to eurofighter and all 4th generation planes and less expensive than j-20. Should be a prototype flight soon!!! Are you referring to the J-10B or a SAC competitor to CAC's J-20? If you're talking about the rumored SAC fighter, that's supposed to be a 5th gen fighter, but that's still speculation at this point. However, I'm inclined to believe this speculation has some truth behind it because the J-20 has some design elements that would suggest it's some sort of fighter/bomber/interceptor possibly to complement a strategy for safeguarding it's upcoming aircraft carrier battlegroup(s) with air-to-air and anti-ship missiles over the East and South China Seas. The J-20 has what looks like huge cargo capacity, perfect for holding bulky anti-ship missiles. It would also increase the envelope within which China could realistically hold off several American aircraft carrier battle groups to beyond the 1st island chain, even without using the untested DF-21D ASBMs. F-22As wouldn't be prominent in such a naval conflict and the J-20 looks like it would make mince meat of the F-35B.你说的是J-10B还是沈飞的丝带候选竞争者？如果你说的是传说中的沈飞战斗机，那它应该是丝带机，但目前它还只是一个猜测。然而，我倾向于相信它。因为j-20的某些设计要素暗示了这是一种歼击机/轰炸机/截击机，可能是用于携带空空导弹和反舰导弹，作为一种补充以保护即将出现的航母战斗群航行于东海、南海。J-20看上去有很强的挂载能力，很适合挂载大型反舰导弹。它还会加强中国阻吓美军航母于第一岛链之外的能力，而且还不要使用未曾测试过的东风21D反舰弹道导弹。在这样的海上冲突中，F-22A不会表现得太突出，而J-20看起来可以狂虐F-35B。 With these thoughts in mind, this is why I think there may possibly be another 5th generation fighter under development in Shenyang strictly for air superiority while the J-20 serves the more restrictive role as just described, but this is my own speculation.就是鉴于这种考量，我才觉得很可能沈飞在研发另一种丝带机专用于争夺空中优势，而j-20正如上述所说，是扮演一种更有限的角色。当然，这只是我的猜测。
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Martian
Today, 04:48 AM Leveling the military arms race 开启了军备竞赛 This is an exciting milestone for China's military aviation. The development and successful flight of China's J-20 stealth fighter will enable China to keep potential aggressors away from her coastline. The era of foreign imperialism and coercion is coming to an end. This is a great achievement for everyone that believes in world peace. 这是中国军用航空工业一个激动人心的里程碑。 j-20的研发和首飞成功令中国保持了向海岸线外进攻的潜力。外来帝国主义压迫的时代结束了。这对于每一个企盼世界和平的人来说都是一个巨大的功绩。 ————————————————————
marshall
Today, 05:05 AM 引用QUOTE (Dizasta @ Jan 11 2011, 05:45 AM) ^^ I concur, the F-35's first flight was also with wheels down! On another note, could anyone please confirm whether the J-20's design envisages Vector-Thrust? Could be a possibility that the design would include TVC-Nozzles, before the J-20 enters full-rate production?Nothing can be confirmed at this early stage but if you go by WS-10 turbofan developments which absolutely include thrust vectoring, then it is a good bet that this will be included in the final design. The main question is whether this will be all-aspect or a pitch-axis only thrust vectoring as is found on the F-22A. 在这么早的阶段，没人可以证实。不过如果你推演一下涡扇10的发展历程，明显包括推力矢量。所以，赌它的最终设计有这设计，应该容易赢。主要问题是，它会是全向的矢量，还是和F-22A类似的二元矢量？ ————————————————————
Archangelesk99
Today, 05:06 AM 引用QUOTE (marshall @ Jan 11 2011, 04:46 AM) It sounds like you're referring to the double-overlap nozzle which suggests some sort of WS-10A turbofan variant. Rumors are floating around that it's a WS-10G derivative, but too early to tell at this point. What is almost certain is that it is not a 117S/AL-41 Russian turbofan, which has been suggested repeatedly. As I predicted last year, the first J-XX/J-20 prototypes will probably use a WS-10A engine derivative while the WS-15 turbofan is still in early development. Considering the WS-15 prototype turbofan is rumored to have successfully tested last year, it will probably begin flight testing onboard the J-20 earlier than thought.If this J-20 is indeed using the WS-10G turbofan, then there will not be any hurry to begin flight testing with the WS-15 turbofan. News is that the WS-15 has only realized ~90% of its designed thrust so it is only able to deliver a bit over 160KN now vs. ~150KN for the WS-10G. I don't think the 180Kn ws-15 is very far behind in development and I think it's already reached 180Kn thrust in the lab. I would not be surprised if this is the early ws-15 with 150Kn thrust that was developed around 2008 and it's already been tested somewhere else (since engines being tested are much harder to detect by the public than big fighters). We'll have to wait and see!!!!我不认为180KN的涡扇15研发进度拖得很慢，我倒觉得它已经在实验室里达到了180KN的推力。如果这是2008年左右研发的150KN涡扇15早期型，我一点也不觉得奇怪，它应该已经在别的地方测试过了（因为公众想爆料发动机测试可比偷拍这么大一架飞机难多了）。让我们试目以待。 引用QUOTEAre you referring to the J-10B or a SAC competitor to CAC's J-20? If you're talking about the rumored SAC fighter, that's supposed to be a 5th gen fighter, but that's still speculation at this point. However, I'm inclined to believe this speculation has some truth behind it because the J-20 has some design elements that would suggest it's some sort of fighter/bomber/interceptor possibly to complement a strategy for safeguarding it's upcoming aircraft carrier battlegroup(s) with air-to-air and anti-ship missiles over the East and South China Seas. The J-20 has what looks like huge cargo capacity, perfect for holding bulky anti-ship missiles. It would also increase the envelope within which China could realistically hold off several American aircraft carrier battle groups to beyond the 1st island chain, even without using the untested DF-21D ASBMs. F-22As wouldn't be prominent in such a naval conflict and the J-20 looks like it would make mince meat of the F-35B.With these thoughts in mind, this is why I think there may possibly be another 5th generation fighter under development in Shenyang strictly for air superiority while the J-20 serves the more restrictive role as just described, but this is my own speculation. No there is apparently another plane under development by China called j-16 or something. It's a "stealth" version of j-10. Very very maneuverable and internal weapons bay along with strong engines (140Kn/engine) and excellent avionics. Its main downside would be that she's not as stealthy as a fifth generation but still much less detectable than 4th generation and less costly than j-20, perhaps $50 million. 不，显然中国在研的另一种战机是J-16或者别的什么歼。它是j-10的隐身版。有非常非常好的机动性，内置弹仓，强劲的发动机和优秀的航电。它的缩水之处主要是没有丝带那么隐身，但仍然比其他三代机更难探测到，而它会比j-20便宜很多，大概5千万美元。 P.S. All sorts of estimates are coming up for J-20, from 1 million $ (I'm guessing that's from those who say it's fake (IMG:style_emoticons/PDFEmotionIconsv10/LOLANI.GIF) ) to about $90 million此外，对j-20的估价实在太多了，从100万美元（我猜是那些说造假的人喊的报价）到9千万美元都有。 ————————————————————
Skull-Buster
Today, 05:39 AM 引用QUOTE (Best of the Best @ Jan 11 2011, 06:25 PM) Can you please help me understand why is that hatch thing opened even during high speed taxi's and also during flight whats the purpose of that hatch can you kindly help me, i have thought and thought and thought but nothing comes to my mind, what is its purpose to be exact and why ? I think those hatches house the tires. If you look at the picture in post #4 then its clearer, the wheels retract into those hatches and if you see closely a hatch is opened on the other side also next to the other wheel. Hatches are open on both sides suggesting that the wheels go in there.我认为那些舱口是装起落架的。如果你看了4楼的清晰照片，会发现起落架会收进这些舱口。仔细看，另一侧的舱口也是紧贴着另一侧起落架。两侧都开舱口，说明这就是装起落架的。 ————————————————————
platinum786
Today, 05:55 AM wow, only a few weeks ago we were denying the pictures as a PS, now we have it flying!!! I haven't felt this excited since the FC-1 prototype pics came out!哇哦，几周前我们还在说这是PS，现在它飞起来了！！！我从看到枭龙原型机的照片起，从来没那么激动过 ————————————————————
BaburMissile
Today, 06:23 AM Well done China! (IMG:style_emoticons/PDFEmotionIconsv10/ChinaFlag.gif) Waiting for US response...
干得好，中国！等着看老美的反应……————————————————————
评论集2 印度rediff 门户网站新闻评论 http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-china-tests-worlds-most-advanced-fighter-aircraft/20110112.htm ———————————————————— Not that superior...没那么厉害。。。by Mahesh (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:33 PM News reports in western media outlets project this aircraft not very superior if not junk西媒的新闻报道不是将这架飞机描述成无敌，就是说成垃圾。 ———————————————————— India and china印度和中国by SREENIVAS (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:30 PM
| Hide replies in our own intrest we should not treat try to compete with china but let us try to forge frienship with china making them to understand we both the countries join gogether then the terrorism problem we are facing(which is also a main worry in china)can be effectively contained为了我们自身的利益，我们不应退缩，而是应该尝试与中国竞争。但让我们尝试发展和中国的友谊吧，我们要让他们明白，我们两个国家同心合作，那些困扰我们的恐怖主义问题就会迎刃而解。 ———————————————————— Re: India and china回复：印度和中国by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:49 PM true没错———————————————————— Re: India and china回复：印度和中国by Vivek Harry (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:35 PM friendship canbe thereonly amongequals只有平等的伙伴间才有友谊。———————————————————— Re: Re: India and china回复：回复：印度和中国by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:49 PM also true也没错———————————————————— nothing to worry没什么可担心的by virat agarwal (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:29 PM
| Hide replies under the inspiring leadership of Kangress, sonia, Rahul India can certainly beat China in Scams, corruption, mismanagment etc Dragon does not even stand in front of us...lol在kangress,sonia,rahul鼓舞人心的领导下，印度可以在欺诈，腐败，失职等方面轻松击败中国。中国龙连站在我们面前的资格都没有。哈哈———————————————————— Re: nothing to worry回复：没什么可担心的by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:49 PM Good one说得好———————————————————— India印度by Ravi (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:28 PM
| Hide replies India is way behind in development things this is only because of leaders,beaurocracy and so on ...印度在研发方面如此落后的唯一原因就是领导人，官僚，诸如此类。。。———————————————————— Re: India回复：印度by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:50 PM true真理———————————————————— well im worried我很担心by virat agarwal (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:27 PM
| Hide replies what Indian airforce have in their arsenal even to combat against dragon onslaught...:-(在面对中国龙的猛攻时，印度空军的军火库里有什么能对抗的么？———————————————————— Re: well im worried回复：我很担心by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:50 PM nothing啥都没有———————————————————— ChineseStealth Fighter Our Tejasisstill 4yrs away!中国隐形战机 我们的LCA还在四年后呢！by D goel (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:26 PM
| Hide replies D. Goel Pkl. afternoon 4.30pm Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011. While the disquiet in strategic circles from Japan philippines Indonesia or even USA is understandably in cautious Low key, there is I am sure Panikcin circles of cognoscenti who see China as a constant Northern threat to most India.We seem to bweneverin rivalry with the dragon, and our Elephant is lethargic splendour embodied. Tejas a middlerange Aircfaft touted as the Standard Bearer of india's quest of self-Reliance in strategic-Aircrafts is nowhere near induction in our Vayu Sena, for several yrs on end.We can make only Marutis by inducting Design and engine casts from Japanese Principal..Suzuki.We are lacking vision and perseverance , and at best master scams and do copy-cat jobs, badly.D. Goel当日本，菲律宾，印度尼西亚，甚至美国的战略圈保持可以理解的低调担忧时，我相信，在那些把中国看做多数印度人永恒的北方威胁的专家圈中，一定是一片恐慌。我们似乎从未能和中国龙势均力敌。我们的大象笨拙不堪。LCA，号称印度自主战略飞机的旗帜，现在距离引入我们的空军还遥遥无期。我们只能通过引进日本suzuki的设计和发动机铸造技术，生产Marutis。我们缺乏远见和韧性，最好也就能掌握欺诈，做些山寨的东西，质量还不咋地。 ———————————————————— Re: ChineseStealth Fighter Our Tejasisstill 4yrs away!by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:51 PM We lack political will and initiative回复楼上：我们缺乏政治意愿和主动性。———————————————————— who cares.. next india will develop it谁关心啊。。下面印度将会研制出它by dhruv kumar (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:15 PM
| Hide replies yesterday US, today China, tomorrow India will develop it. Anyways new developers always have a feature like stealth. china is targeting only US昨天是美国，今天是中国，明天，则是印度将会研制出它。总会有新研发者的，总会有类似隐形这种特征的。中国只是以美国为目标而已。———————————————————— Re: who cares.. next india will develop itby Raj (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:19 PM well its easier said then done回楼上：说起来容易做起来难。———————————————————— Re: Re: who cares.. next india will develop itby dhruv kumar (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:21 PM eventually everyone will have it, like nuclear bomb回楼上：最终，每个人都会拥有的，就像核弹。———————————————————— Re: who cares.. next india will develop itby ashok kumar (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:43 PM Sure, but currently we are struggling with MIG's that take some few Air Force pilots life every year.回：谁关心啊。。下面印度将会研制出它当然，可目前我们还挣扎在那些每年杀死一些空军飞行员的米格中。———————————————————— no concern by congi govtby gaurang patel (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:54 PM
| Hide replies国大党政府才不关心呢while our congi. govt. can hardly control inflation or prices of onions, sugar we cannot expect them to counter this kind of military upgradation from china. they will only indulge in looting public money as they will soon complete 10 yrs. & after 10 yrs its history of india to change govt. so the congi guys are still denying any tresspassing by china into borders the civilians have already confirmed chinese men entering our territory & stopping construction work. so far govt. is busy hiding out the truth & the day is not far when china would again take bigger part of india. our congi govt still would say that they were busy controlling inflation & their dirty internal politics.我们的国大党政府连控制洋葱，糖的价格上涨都做不到，我们怎么能指望他应付中国军事升级的问题呢。（我们的政府）沉迷于剥夺公众的钱，因为这项工作要在10年内完成，十年以后就是换政府（改选）的时候。边境的平民确信有中国人进入印度领土并且停止了构建的工作，可是国大党的人还否认有来自中国边境的非法越境。对政府来说，还是掩盖事实要紧，中国拿走印度大块土地的日子已经不远了。我们的政府还在说他们忙着控制通膨呢，这就是肮脏的内部政治。 ———————————————————— Re: no concern by congi govtby Vivek Harry (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 05:01 PM ifchina givesits allweather friendPakistan thisstealth fighterthen wecan expectNDelhi tofall likea packofcards要是中国把隐形战机给了他们全天候的朋友巴基斯坦，到时新德里就满盘皆输了。 ———————————————————— This stealth fighter is not the most advanced one.by kao (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:52 PM
| Hide replies这个隐形飞机不是最先进的I am a Chinese and new here, HI to all rediff friends. Truely, the test flight fulfilled the aspiration of many Chinese nationalists and patriotic，as well as being use as a propaganda tool by CCP; but I have no idea why it is hyped as the most advanced one. Donno what kind of reference the writer quoted and how well you guys here know about aircraft technology, this fighter has been designed for defence, one may find the evidence from engine power or aerodynamic design.LAC have also made its first flight,lucky day for both India and China.Hats off to all engineers and designers, they deserve it.我是一个刚到这里的中国人，rediff的朋友们大家好。当然，这次试飞激发了中国的国家主义和爱国热情，也是共产党宣传的一部分；不过我不明白为什么要夸大的宣传这是最先进的（飞机）。作者是从哪里引用的材料，这里的朋友们都不都飞机技术呢，这个飞机是被设计来防御的，这点可以从发动机（推动力）和空气动力学设置上看出。LCA也首飞过了，这对中印两国都是好消息。向工程师和设计人员们致敬，他们实至名归。 ————————————————————
Re: This stealth fighter is not the most advanced one.by sree harsha (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:58 PM回复：这个隐形飞机不是最先进的This is not the world's most advanced fighter jet. This is termed as a 4th generation fighter jet. the US already has operational F22 fighters (Not development). The US (Jointly with NATO) is already developing its 5th generation fighter F35. India and Russia jointly are developing 4th generation fighter plane Sukhoi-PAK...Get your facts straight rediff.这不是世界上最先进的喷气战机。这被定义为4代喷气战机。美国已经在用F22战机（不是新产品）。美国（还有北约）已经在发展第5代战机F35。印度和俄罗斯正在联合研发第4代战机Sukhoi-PAK。 ———————————————————— Not necessaryby Bharat Bhooshan (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:52 PM
| Hide replies没必要Many people can own a formula one cars; but it is only Schumaker how can use it optimally. Meaning it doesn't matter how advanced your air craft is unless you know how to use it optimally and Indian fighter pilots are best.很多人有一级方程式赛车，不过只有舒马赫知道怎么能开得最好。同样的，你的飞机有多好并不重要，除非你知道怎么能用的最好，印度的飞行员是最好的。 ———————————————————— Re: Not necessaryby mohammed ulhaq (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 05:07 PM 回复：没必要Keep saying 'aal is well' and you will get the kick on your butt.接着说“aal很好”然后你就会被踢出去。 ————————————————————by Rohan Kapoor (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:50 PM If there is some shame left in Indian corrupt politicians and they feel they r the major cause behind country\'s bad health they must bring their black money back and spend it on defence sector in the way to overcome china otherwise this dragon is going to eat us.如果腐败的印度政客们能感到羞耻，知道他们就是国家糟糕情况的始作俑者，他们就该把黑钱退回来用在国防部门，这样我们才能赶上这只龙，不然龙就会吃掉我们。 ———————————————————— long way to go!by aniketh MG (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:48 PM 还有很长的路要走the articles claims that F-35 is inferior compared to the J-20. that is absurd. The f-22 itself is superior to J-20 and the F-35, is much better than F-22. so can place ur bets on which is superior. India and Russia are working on a Sukhoi stealth as well. China has a long way to go before it can actually develop a true stealth. the only matter of concern is that china can manufacture these planes fast and at less prices. Six years to be in active service.. only attests some stealth flaws本文称F35弱于J20，这太荒谬了。F22就比J20强，F35又比F22好很多，你说F35和J20谁更好呢。印度和俄罗斯也在作Sukhoi隐形飞机。中国在造真正的隐形飞机方面还要很长的路要走。真正要注意的是中国造飞机很快而且便宜。6年就能服役~~只能证明隐形的缺陷。 ———————————————————— Congratulations China!by suppandi (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:39 PM
| Hide repliesAll the Best!祝贺中国万事顺利！
———————————————————— Re: Congratulations China!by ashambani (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:48 PM are you out of your mind回复：祝贺中国你是不是有点疯 ———————————————————— Not that superior...by Mahesh (View MyPage) on Jan 12, 2011 04:33 PM 没那么先进News reports in western media outlets project this aircraft not very superior if not junk西媒关于这个飞机项目的报道说飞机没有那么先进。 ————————————————————
评论集3 Defence forum India 印度防务论坛 【译者注：该论坛属于鱼龙混杂型，从高手到喷子一应俱全】 http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=17450&page=51 ———————————————————— arya
Regular Member for my nation security every small thing is important i dont know why govt has close eyes toward china why they are sleeping why we are lacking against china and if the ratio will be same then what will be result wakeup call for our nation guys if we dont start to move then it will be too late what our security ageineces are doing well no doubt china has upper hands but we have to make our best effort to change the things DRDO what these guys are doing is any one in my country can give me answer why ??/ as an indian nation security is fisrt and most important then rest thing govt should know that thing else door is open for them任何一件小事对于我国的国家安全来说都很重要。我不知道为什么我们的政府忙于紧盯中国，为什么他们对于本国的情况却毫无动作。我们为什么面对中国的挑战提不起劲来？如果情况持续如此，结果将会怎样？是时候从睡梦中醒来了。伙计们，如果我们还不开始行动，按现在我们安全部门的表现看，就一切都迟了。没错，毫无疑问，中国已经占了先手。但我们要做的是尽自己最大努力去改变一切。国防发展与研究组织那帮人在干吗啊？哪位能告诉我？这到底是为神马？作为一个印度人，国家安全是所有事情的重中之重，政府应该知道这点才是。门为他们敞开着，行动取决于他们自己。 ———————————————————— Kunal Biswas
Stars and Ambassadors
Originally Posted by sayareakd
F-35 上面为J20和F35的座舱一体化大屏幕显示系统对比图。 I guess F-35`s is touch screen..我猜F35的是触屏的。 ———————————————————— p2prada
Originally Posted by nimo_cn
Yes, it is more like a PR campaign, but for what reason the authority launched this campaign remains unknown.引用nimo_cn：使得，他看起来更像是一场公关活动，但当局发起这次活动的原因仍然未知。PR campaigns are meant to show off capability, nothing else. Without it flying it is a failure in PR. Remember my first post in this thread. I said I will comment on the J-20 only after I see its first flight. All military observers want to see a flying prototype to believe in capability. 公关活动的目的没别的，就是为了炫耀武力。但它不飞，这次公关活动就是失败的。记住我在此帖的第一个回复，我说过除非它飞起来，否则我不会就J20发表任何评论。所有的军事观察员都想通过原型机试飞来确认它的水平如何。First flight having been carried out is a possibility, a near 100% possibility. But the fact remains, if you were Russia then just showing the prototype would have been enough to suggest it can fly because of their history with aircraft development which has been proven many times. But China does not even have its own engine on legacy fighters like the J-10 and JF-17. So a static mock up wouldn't be scary at all.很可能J20已经首飞过了，几乎百分之百的可能性。但问题是，如果你是俄罗斯，可能你只要把原型机展示出来就足够说明飞行起来也没问题了，因为他们历史上飞机发展的能力已经被无数次验证了。但中国的经典战机J10,J1F17甚至连引擎都不能自产。所以如果展示出的就是架模型而已也没什么惊奇的。This a either an unintentional leak, or something went wrong for the first flight not to have happened in front of the world eyes. Right now we can extrapolate that it is not an unintentional leak because even CCP did a coverage on it, but we can say that something went wrong because the first flight hasn't happened for so long since the leak. It could be an internal or an external anomaly and time will reveal that.这要么是无意泄露，要么是本该保密的收费出现问题。现在我们可以推测，这不是无意泄露了，因为GCD也做了相关报道。但我们可以说肯定是出什么问题了，因为据泄露到现在，过了这么久都没有收费。可能是出现内部或外部异常，时间会说明一切。Something you should understand is that CCP doesn't have to prove anything to the Chinese people, so the authority is under no pressure to disclose every detail of the J20 project. Neither it is a race between J20 and T50, CCP won't be that childish to show pictures of J20's flight tests(if these was any) just because Russia published pictures of a flying T50.有些东西你应该明白的是，GCD不必向他的人民说明一切，所以当局不会承受任何要求公开J20项目细节的压力。这也不会是一场J20和T50的竞赛，GCD不可能幼稚到仅仅因为俄罗斯公布了一张T50试飞图，就公布出J20的试飞照片。CCP has nothing to prove to the Chinese people. This leak is meant for the so called major powers to gawk at. It is meant to prove China to the world. This is indeed a race between Russia, China and US(F-35) to get a fifth gen aircraft flying ASAP. That's a huge PR boost.GCD没必要向中国人民说明一切。这次的泄露，其目的是为了让那些所谓的主要国家目瞪口呆。他是为了向世界证明中国的能力。实际上，这是一场俄罗斯，中国，美国之间的竞争，看谁能尽可能快的让五代机上天。这是一场大型的公关活动。This is also the reason why I am speculating the authority has finished the maiden flight test before letting the public know its existence. CCP can't bear the risk of failing the first flight before the public.If the J-20 has already had its first flight then they would have shown it flying by now.这也是为什么我怀疑中国当局在向公众告知J20的存在之前，就已经完成了收费的原因。GCD无法容忍任何在民众注目下的失败。如果J20已经完成了收费，那么他们现在早就已经把飞行照片放出来了。 ———————————————————— goldfox_79
I guess the plane can not fly right now. The reason why Chinese leak it so early is, they want to show something before the US defense secretary visits China and the Chinese president visits US.我猜着飞机现在还不能飞。中国如此早的泄露J20的原因是他们想在美国国防部长访问中国和中国主席访问美国之前，展示点什么。Anyway, it is not big deal. To defeat China, the only thing that India needs to do is, to sell advanced Indian weapons, such as LCA/ALH/submarine to Taiwan.不管怎么说，没什么了不起的。要想击败中国，印度所要做的，就是向台湾出售先进的印度武器，比如LCA，ALH和潜艇。 ———————————————————— Armand2REP
Star member
Originally Posted by badguy2000
it is a quite clear video http://www.56.com/u78/v_NTc3MTY2Mjc.html原帖由badguy2000（这位是华人）发表：一个蛮清晰的视频：http://www.56.com/u78/v_NTc3MTY2Mjc.htmlIt is quite clear from the video it is no fighter. It is longer than an F-111 tactical bomber. The large canards reduce stealth and cause huge drag. If it is using a pair of WS-10s it is way underpowered for its size and can forget about supercruise. If this thing turns on its PESA radar it will be dead meat. This isn't a fighter at all, it is more in line with an F-117 stealth bomber.这视频非常清楚的显示，这架飞机不是战斗机。他比F111战略轰炸机略长。巨大的鸭翼降低了隐身性能，造成巨大的阻力。如果它用的是双WS-10S引擎的话，那么它就因体型巨大而动力不足，至于超音速巡航就别想了。如果它再打开它的PESA雷达的话，它就死定了。这根本不是战斗机，它更像是类似F117那种隐形轰炸机。 ———————————————————— singa
I don't think taiwan will buy LCA/ALH/submarine. 我不认为台湾会买LCA，ALH和印度潜艇的。 ———————————————————— badguy2000
Originally Posted by Armand2REP
It is quite clear from the video it is no fighter. It is longer than an F-111 tactical bomber. The large canards reduce stealth and cause huge drag. If it is using a pair of WS-10s it is way underpowered for its size and can forget about supercruise. If this thing turns on its PESA radar it will be dead meat. This isn't a fighter at all, it is more in line with an F-117 stealth bomber. don't you think WS10 is still a junk? 你不是还认为WS10就是个垃圾么？ ———————————————————— Armand2REP
Originally Posted by badguy2000
don't you think WS10 is still a junk?Sure, that is why it is fielding AL-31s. 是啊，所以J20用的是AL-31S。 ———————————————————— badguy2000
Originally Posted by Armand2REP
Sure, that is why it is fielding AL-31s. People always experience Five stages when they know they have got some incurable disease.....that is :"Denial ,anger,bargaining ,depression ,acceptance" now, obviously you are on the stage of "bargaining". 人们在知道他们身患绝症的时候总是会经历五个阶段。。。分别是：否认，愤恨，讨价还价，抑郁，接受。很显然，你现在正处于“讨价还价”的阶段。 ———————————————————— Armand2REP
Originally Posted by badguy2000
People always experience Five stages when they know they have got some incurable disease.....that is :"Denial ,anger,bargaining ,depression ,acceptance" now, obviously you are on the stage of "bargaining". The only incurable disease I have is this Canton Cough. You still bargaining with Russia for engines apparently. lol 我所患的唯一绝症就是这个“广东咳嗽”。而你们显然还在为发动机和俄罗斯讨价还价。笑死我了。 ———————————————————— cir
Full Member Tomorrow(11.1.2011 Beijing Time) is the day, weather permitting. 明天就收费了，天气条件允许。 ———————————————————— badguy2000
he he, Guy, PLS remember his face.....never trust his words any more.. the guy is PLAN rear admiral Zhang Zhaozhong, PLA's actual throat on public medias like CCTV.呵呵，同志们，记住这个人，永远不要再相信他的话了。这人是中国海军少将张召忠，解放军在诸如CCTV等媒体上的实际发言人。The guy assertively denied the existence of Chinese 5G bird project in one intervew of CCTV last year,after one PLAAF marshal leaked that " Chinese 5G bird would enter into service in about 7-8 years."这人在去年CCTV的访谈节目中断然否认中国五代战机的存在。之前曾有空军司令员透露“中国的五代战机将在七到八年内服役。”Here is the wonderful performance of Rear Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong in the interveiw of CCTV last year.下面是张召忠少将去年在CCTV节目中的精彩表现：His performance can match Mr. Sahhaf during Iraq war II. 他的表演水准直追二次伊战中萨哈夫的表现：his word: " I mean that one modified type of J10......."他说：“我是说那是架十改。。。” His word:" ......now are wrongly reported as our 5G bird...." 他说：“。。。错被报道成我军的五代战机。。。”His word: ".....It took yankees over 20 years to develope F22 ........" 他说：“。。。美国佬花了20多年研制F22啊。。。”His word: " .....however, now we even have not started developing our 5G aircraft project yet......" 他说：“。。。不管怎样，我们现在还没启动我们的五代战机项目。。。” ———————————————————— Minghegy
Flied with domestic engine用的是国产引擎。 ———————————————————— badguy2000
Respected Member
obviouly J20 now has finished the first "public fight"........ 很显然，J20已经完成了首次“公开飞行” ———————————————————— Armand2REP
Originally Posted by Minghegy
Flied with domestic engine引用：用的是国产引擎。Nope, AL-31s... check the nozzles. 不是，是AL-31S。。。仔细看下喷嘴 ———————————————————— Sridhar
I saw some images wherein it has got two different Nozzles.我在一些照片里看到它两边的喷嘴不一样。 ———————————————————— starikki
the shiny white ones 闪闪发光的白色的东西 ———————————————————— badguy2000 Join Date:May 2009Posts:2,769 the first "public flight" lasted 18 munitessuch a long "public flight" itself suggested that J20 might have finished its real maiden flight already somewhere else. 首次“公开飞行”持续了18分钟如此长的“公开飞行”就已经说明J20早在别处完成了收费。 ———————————————————— badguy2000
Join Date:May 2009Posts:2,769
Originally Posted by starikki
the shiny white ones引用：闪闪发光的白色的东西the bomb bay was not closed obvioulsy for some reason....perhaps for experimental-data collecting. 弹仓没有关起来显然是有原因的。。。也许是为了试验数据收集。 ———————————————————— shaka
Congratulations to Chinese.
祝贺中国人民。 ———————————————————— Minghegy Originally Posted by Armand2REP
Nope, AL-31s... check the nozzles.引用：不是，是AL-31S。。。仔细看下喷嘴They are silver white nozzles, means domestic engine WS-10G, 155KNs (15816 kg). 他们是银白色的喷嘴，表明这是国产发动机WS-10G，15816公斤推力。 ———————————————————— badguy2000 Join Date:May 2009Posts:2,769
Originally Posted by Minghegy
They are silver white nozzles, means domestic engine WS-10G, 155KNs (15816 kg).引用：他们是银白色的喷嘴，表明这是国产发动机WS-10G，15816公斤推力。It may not real "maiden flight" at all. the real "maiden flight" might have finished somewhere else long ago.But it might be the first public flight...with domestic engines. 也许根本不是收费。真的收费可能早在其他地方完成了。但它也许是第一次公开飞行。。。用的还是国产发动机。 ———————————————————— Minghegy
Join Date:Jan 2010Posts:237 Hu Jintao will meet Robert Gates in two hours after the maiden flight. 涛哥将在收费两小时后会见盖茨。 ———————————————————— p2prada Join Date:May 2009Posts:1,993
Originally Posted by Minghegy
They are silver white nozzles, means domestic engine WS-10G, 155KNs (15816 kg).引用：他们是银白色的喷嘴，表明这是国产发动机WS-10G，15816公斤推力。I would say they are the Flexible Petals on a Al-31. But I would still like to give the benefit of the doubt to the J-20 team. It would be a remarkable achievement if the WS-10G has been successfully tested. Good show on the first flight. 我想说那是AL-31的活动伐瓣。但既然无法证明，我还是给J20团队些面子好了。如果WS-10G已经测试成功了的话，将会是个了不起的成就。收费表现不错。 ———————————————————— Armand2REP Join Date:Dec 2009Posts:2,683
Originally Posted by Sridhar
I saw some images wherein it has got two different Nozzles.引用：我在一些照片里看到它两边的喷嘴不一样。 That is the WS-10 on the left and Al-31 on the right. WS-10 nozzle doesn't open nearly as much as the Iris nozzles. 左边的是WS-10，右边的是AL-31。WS-10喷嘴没那么开。 ———————————————————— rocky2
Join Date:Jul 2009Location:ChennaiPosts:28 Is it really flying or a photoshop work.. no video link posted yet ... does anyone have the link to watch it live 是真的飞了还是PS的啊。。。到现在还没有视频贴出来。。。有人有直播地址没 ———————————————————— Armand2REP
Join Date:Dec 2009Posts:2,683 .................................................. 【这句就不用翻了吧，这哥们儿吵着没视频，然后一个印度哥们儿贴了几个视频，然后丫就这状态了】 ———————————————————— cir
Originally Posted by Armand2REP
Looks fake considering this is a WS-10 engine nozzle.引用：考虑到这是WS-10的喷嘴，看着太假了。 SW-10A is passe。SW-15 is also making good progress。WS-10A已经过了它的全盛期。而WS-15也进展顺利。The picture shown is Taihang。Have you ever considered the possibility that the J-20 is powered by a more advanced version of Taihang？图中的是太行。你就没想过有种可能，J20是用更先进版的太行带动的么？It is not a possiblity. It is fact. 这不是可能，这是事实。 ———————————————————— cir For those who still live in denial: http://www.56.com/u45/v_NTc3NTI4NTA.html Take a good, very good, look at the engines with which the J-20 were powered for today's maiden flight . lol! 那些仍然拒绝相信的人：http://www.56.com/u45/v_NTc3NTI4NTA.html好好看看J20今天首飞用的是什么引擎。笑死我了。 ———————————————————— black eagle
So it did fly.... Here is the clear video showing take off & landing... http://www.56.com/u45/v_NTc3NTI4NTA.html 它真的飞了。。。这是起飞和降落更清楚的视频：http://www.56.com/u45/v_NTc3NTI4NTA.html ———————————————————— badguy2000
引用
Originally Posted by p2prada
I would say they are the Flexible Petals on a Al-31. But I would still like to give the benefit of the doubt to the J-20 team. It would be a remarkable achievement if the WS-10G has been successfully tested. Good show on the first flight.well, perhaps that is just you wish. in fact, I seriouly suspect that the real "maiden flight" had been finished with russian engines before the public show. This time, the white nozzle engines are obvioulsy domestic engines. 实际上，我深深怀疑真正的首飞已经在此次的公众演出前，用俄罗斯引擎完成了。这次，这个白色喷嘴的引擎显然是国产的。 ———————————————————— Armand2REP Originally Posted by black eagle
So it did fly.... Here is the clear video showing take off & landing... http://www.56.com/u45/v_NTc3NTI4NTA.html引用：它真的飞了。。。这是起飞和降落更清楚的视频：http://www.56.com/u45/v_NTc3NTI4NTA.htmlAmasing how slow Chinese servers are... I can get youtube faster on a VPN. lol 中国服务器真是慢的令人惊奇啊。。。我用VPN上油条都比这快。太搞笑了。 ———————————————————— badguy2000
Join Date:May 2009Posts:2,769
Originally Posted by Armand2REP
Amasing how slow Chinese servers are... I can get youtube faster on a VPN. lolArmand ,remember the face, and never trust his words any more.... Armand,请诸位记住这个人，永远不要再相信他的话。。。 his brief他的简历： http://defenceforumindia.com/showthr...=17450&page=51 【本贴前一页，此人在里面有发言。前面译者已经翻译，多为嘲笑攻击中国的言论】 ———————————————————— tony4562
Join Date:Oct 2009Posts:258 That guy is idiot, his nickname is Chang al-Sahaf named after Saddam's information minister. During the gulf war II he made lots of fearless predictions on national TV that Saddam's army would fight the Americans to the last man. But then again i tend to think that underneath J20 probably has more in common with J10 than anything else. 那个人就是个傻X。他小名Chang al-Sahaf，跟着萨达姆的新闻部长起的名字。在第二次海湾战争中，他在国家电视台上作出许多无畏的预言，称萨达姆的军队将会和美军战斗到最后一个人。但我还是倾向于认为，J20的内里和J10最为相像。 ———————————————————— badguy2000
Join Date:May 2009Posts:2,769
Originally Posted by tony4562
That guy is idiot, his nickname is Chang al-Sahaf named after Saddam's information minister. During the gulf war II he made lots of fearless predictions on national TV that Saddam's army would fight the Americans to the last man. But then again i tend to think that underneath J20 probably has more in common with J10 than anything else.引用楼上：那个人就是个傻X。他小名Chang al-Sahaf，跟着萨达姆的新闻部长起的名字。在第二次海湾战争中，他在国家电视台上作出许多无畏的预言，称萨达姆的军队将会和美军战斗到最后一个人。但我还是倾向于认为，J20的内里和J10最为相像。 well, the guy in fact is a wise man who pretend to be a idiot. after all, not everyone can pretend to be Sahaf. 我倒觉得那家伙非常聪明，他只是装的像个傻X。毕竟，没有人能够扮演萨哈夫。 ———————————————————— sayareakd
good pics thanks BG 图不错，谢谢BG了。 ———————————————————— Minghegy
Imagine four J20 fighters carrying sixteen medium-range ramjet air-to-air missiles which can fly at a speed of Mach 5 or 6, that's the image of future fighters. Is it possible to call it 5.5G fighter?
想象一下吧，四架J20战机，搭载16枚中程冲压发动机空对空导弹，以5或6马赫速度航行。这是未来战机的图景啊。能不能叫它5.5代战机？ ———————————————————— sayareakd
Originally Posted by Minghegy
Imagine four J20 fighters carrying sixteen medium-range ramjet air-to-air missiles which can fly at a speed of Mach 5 or 6, that's the image of future fighters. Is it possible to call it 5.5G fighter?引用：想象一下吧，四架J20战机，搭载16枚中程冲压发动机空对空导弹，以5或6马赫速度航行。这是未来战机的图景啊。能不能叫它5代半战机？how about 5.5++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. ......+++++ +++ (few more) it is development, let it complete first. 超超超超（省略N字）5代半你看怎么样？它还在研发中，先弄出来再说。 ———————————————————— Tshering22
Join Date:Aug 2010Location:Gangtok and New Delhi, IndiaPosts:1,141 Let's see.... that J-20 or whatever it is called isn't going to be showing up in an auto exhibition where IAF officials get to touch, feel, and hence analyze the machine, especially when we are taking Chinese into context who are more apt at hiding everything rather than showing something at all. There have been pictures and all everywhere now that j-20 has made the flight but hey, what engine are they using for maiden flight? They claim that WS-10 is a big success but still order more AL-31F engines from Saturn plant in Russia recently. What's that for? So if they're not successful in making an engine with sufficient thrust for their previous gen jet then how is it that J-20 which is HUGE by the pics, going to be flown with any engine other than AL-41 (an upgrade to the SU-30 engine) at all?让我们来看看。。。J20或者随便他们怎么叫，这飞机又不会在车展上展出，印度空军军官们不会有机会亲自接触感受它，并由此分析这台战机的性能如何。考虑到中国人更擅长于隐藏自身情况而不是炫耀，情况更是如此了。到处都在流传照片，说J20已经收费了。但是，喂，他们到底用的什么引擎啊？他们声称WS-10已经取得重大成功，但最近仍然向俄罗斯采购了更多的AL-31F。其目的是什么？那么如果他们没能成功开发出具有足够推力驱动他们目前战机的引擎，那么从照片看体型巨大的J20怎么可能不是用的AL-41（苏30引擎的升级版）试飞的？Taxi trials are different than actually flying the jet. So let them do what they have to do and let us Indians focus on what we have to do: get Tejas series, MRCA, FGFA and AMCA up in the goddamn air ASAP. Again, we spend way too much time thinking what others are doing rather than what we should do in response, hence causing too much delay. This is about us forumers who are more concerned about the country. The government doesn't even think half as us but busy swindling this country. LOL 滑行试验和实际飞行是不同的概念。让他们做他们该做的事，我们印度人做我们该做的事吧。尽可能快地让LCA，MRCA,FGFA,AMCA他娘的上天。重复一遍，我们花太多时间在考虑别人如何做，而不是我们自己如何应对上，因而拖延了太多时间。我们这些混论坛的更关心这个国家。政府部门压根连我们的一半都比不上，整天忙着挥霍国家的财富。真TM搞笑。 ———————————————————— p2prada
Join Date:May 2009Posts:1,993 I doubt the J-20 will be flying at Mach 5+ Minghegy. Anyway has Chengdu released any kind of information along with the first flight. I was looking forward to that.Minghegy，我怀疑J20速度能不能达到5马赫以上。不管怎么说，成都方面除了这次首飞，还有其他消息发布没？我很期待那个。 ———————————————————— houde10000
Join Date:May 2009Posts:63
Originally Posted by p2prada
I doubt the J-20 will be flying at Mach 5+ Minghegy. Anyway has Chengdu released any kind of information along with the first flight. I was looking forward to that.Man, don't take it seriously. Mach 5+ is just kidding, the J20 shape is not properly for speedy up even Mach 2+, J20 is too fat. 哥们儿，别当真。5马赫以上只是玩笑而已，J20的形状不适合高速航行，2马赫以上都不太可能。J20体型太肥了。 ———————————————————— 评论集4印度国防信息（Bharat-Rakshak） http://www.bharat-rakshak.com 【译者注：这是印度军事网站财团的主页，通过该站点可了解印度陆军、海军、空军、核力量、导弹部队和航天力量的现状与发展。该网站人气很足，水平也比较高，类似于国内的飞扬超大鼎盛等专业军坛，非TX、ZH或者WY、KD。】 http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3827&start=3920 http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5784&start=40 【译者注：原帖是关注中国军事的长贴，但在j-20曝光后回帖迅速攀升，十几天内回复超过1000条，原帖达到100页上限不得不另开新楼。因此首飞评论跨越前后两贴，挑选了30条较典型的评论，一般情况下不选中国人的回复】 ———————————————————— DavidD
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 09:54
The plane's in the air! 飞机升空了
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shiv
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 10:08
引用：It didn't seem to use afterburner for take off. It's now circling the airfield 看起来没开加力就起飞了。现在飞机绕机场盘旋。 Well done. In fact when I was critical of that video - it was because I could not see any after burner. But that is only a curiosity. Afterburner is not needed for flight or take off anyway. Need to se photos and videos or I will say you Chinese are lying!
干得好。实际上我对现有视频很不满——因为我看不见任何加力。不过这只是好奇，起飞和飞行过程中开加力都不是必须的。 必须要有图片和视频，否则我会说你们中国人在撒谎！
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indranilroy
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 10:23
That is amazing ... the president flies in twice to see the first flight ... they put up firecrackers after first flight ... quite unprecedented I must say . 真让人惊奇…主席为了看首飞来了两次【之前谣传来视察的是Hu sir，阿三挺相信的】……他们在首飞后放了鞭炮……我必须说这是前所未有的。
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Sid
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 10:37
BRFite Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26Posts: 297
Second fotu *too late. already posted* third fotu. its damn wide as compared to slim trim J10. Its internal weapon payload must be off the roof. 来迟了，有人抢先发图了 第三张图，比起J10来说真TM宽啊，它的内部弹仓载弹量必定顶天了……
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Marten
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 11:24
Location: Supporting Free Tibet 【注意这里，他自称来自于：支持西藏自由】
Congratulations to all Chingos on BRF. Good luck and wishes to all test pilots. <snipe>DavidD, I took a flight from the airport to the hotel today. ooops, it was just a taxi.</snipe>
恭喜论坛里所有的清国人了。祝所有试飞员好运。 另外，DavidD，我今天刚从机场“飞”到了酒店。喔，只是出租车而已。 【chingos是翻译成清国人么？求解。DavidD是发图的中国人，和这个Marten有过争论。】
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Top
Singha
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 12:09
BRF Oldie
the ungainly undercarriage door is the only sore spot in looks dept...else it looks nice black and menacing like a SR71 blackbirds brother of sorts. 丑陋的起落架舱门是外观上仅有的瑕疵……此外，这黑色真帅，邪恶有如SR71，黑鸟家族兄弟
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Philip
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 12:42
One must take one's hat off to the PRC and its single-mindedness of purpose.While we have just cleared our LCA of 4th-gen cpability-that too which will only get final clearance in service in 2013,China has tested its 5th-gen stealth fighter for the first time.We are at least a decade behind the PRC in terms of designing and building one's own aircraft,but are trying hard to close the gap/leapfrogging into the rarified atmosphere of stealth with the JV with Russia for the 5th-gen fighter,already being tested.This should enable us to put into service our 5th-gen stealth fighter first,followed in due course by the AMCA,ambitions which now seems to parallel the US's approach which has two stealth fighters for the future,the F-22 Raptor and the JSF.The main challenge for the IAF will be the rapid induction of new PRC fighters into the PAF,as China can build aircraft far faster than we can-the LCA's production being only "10 a year",as mentioned officially yesterday.
大家都为中国和它的专注而脱帽致敬。此时，我们还只是刚刚把4代的LCA搞利索——而且要在2013年才算形成战斗力；而中国已经开始测试5代机了。在设计和制造自己的战斗机方面，我们至少落后中国10年。而是我们正在尽力拉近距离，通过和俄罗斯合资搞已经开始测试了的5代机，跃入隐形战机的境界。这会让我们能有自己的5代机服役，若AMCA能即使跟进，那我们的雄心可比美帝，他们在未来有两种隐形战机：F22和F35对印度空军来说，最主要的威胁是巴基斯坦空军能迅速引进的新式中国战斗机。中国造飞机的速度比我们远远快多了——按照昨天官方的说法，LCA的生产率只有“每年10架”。
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wrdos wrote:Two new pics of J20: One can see the convergent exhaust nozzle. 两张新图，可以看到收缩的尾喷口
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DavidD
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:09 I doubt Pakistan can afford the J-20! Also, in the pics wrdos posted, it seems like the plane flew with domestic engines.
我怀疑巴基斯坦是否负担得起J-20此外，从照片上看，貌似装的是国产发动机。 ————————————————————
indranilroy
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:12 引用Philip wrote:One must take one's hat off to the PRC and its single-mindedness of purpose.While we have just cleared our LCA of 4th-gen cpability-that too which will only get final clearance in service in 2013,China has tested its 5th-gen stealth fighter for the first time.We are at least a decade behind the PRC in terms of designing and building one's own aircraft,but are trying hard to close the gap/leapfrogging into the rarified atmosphere of stealth with the JV with Russia for the 5th-gen fighter,already being tested.This should enable us to put into service our 5th-gen stealth fighter first,followed in due course by the AMCA,ambitions which now seems to parallel the US's approach which has two stealth fighters for the future,the F-22 Raptor and the JSF.The main challenge for the IAF will be the rapid induction of new PRC fighters into the PAF,as China can build aircraft far faster than we can-the LCA's production being only "10 a year",as mentioned officially yesterday. Since you forgot to mention, I shall mention it. The officials said that they will be producing at "10 a year". This can be increased "considerably" if desired.鉴于你忘了提到，我必须说明一下，官方说生产率是一年10架，但如果需要这个速度可以“大幅”加快。 ————————————————————
Kanson
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:13 Well its very nice to see the very well orchestrated J-20 introduction and its first flight. Goes into the aviation history as remember-able moment for more than one reason. Shows the Chinese persistence whether in exploding the nuclear bomb or the first flight of Stealth fighter to reach that status of one among of the firsts. Kudos! 哦，非常高兴能看到组织得如此之好的J-20介绍及其首飞。多方面的原因使之能作为航空史中值得记忆的亦可。这显示了中国人的恒心，不论是研发核弹还是隐形战机的首飞，都是跻身首批先驱者之列。光荣！ ————————————————————
kit
looks that the J20 is a bomb truck with that wing span probably carry more than the MKI, and its headon rcs less as well ? 貌似J-20是架有着如此翼展的炸弹卡车，很可能比su-30MKI载弹量还大，而且前向RCS还更小？ ———————————————————— Philip
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:44 If "watchers" were allowed,then it means that the aircraft has already been flight tested and this flight was well rehearsed,meant to "concide" with Gates' meeting with the PRC mandarins.The report below pours some cold water on the PRC achievemnent,but perhaps like many who have pooh-pooed China's "achievements",these may be famous last words too! 既然“爬墙围观”都被允许了，那就意味着这飞机早就飞过了，而这次是早计划好在美防长会见中国高层时发生的“巧合”。以下的报道向中国的成绩泼冷水，但是可能就像其他藐视中国成就的人一样，这些也许就是著名的遗言了。 【famous last words是首MV，最后一场演出后他们烧掉了舞台，摔坏了吉它。】 Kit,your analysis appears to be spot on with some western analysts.kit，你的观点就和这个西方分析很类似 http://the-diplomat.com/2011/01/07/chin ... dium=email Over-hyped Stealth JetJanuary 07, 2011吹嘘过头的隐形战机 ————————————————————
kit
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 13:46 引用：Philip wrote:One must take one's hat off to the PRC and its single-mindedness of purpose.While we have just cleared our LCA of 4th-gen cpability-that too which will only get final clearance in service in 2013,China has tested its 5th-gen stealth fighter for the first time.We are at least a decade behind the PRC in terms of designing and building one's own aircraft,but are trying hard to close the gap/leapfrogging into the rarified atmosphere of stealth with the JV with Russia for the 5th-gen fighter,already being tested.This should enable us to put into service our 5th-gen stealth fighter first,followed in due course by the AMCA,ambitions which now seems to parallel the US's approach which has two stealth fighters for the future,the F-22 Raptor and the JSF.The main challenge for the IAF will be the rapid induction of new PRC fighters into the PAF,as China can build aircraft far faster than we can-the LCA's production being only "10 a year",as mentioned officially yesterday. Philip., the AMCA is not designed to be a stealth plane according to official info, livefist had a detailed article on it.But it should be., i dont think the official view has come around to it till now.Maybe the J20 will change the AMCA design charecteristics ?! .. lets wait and see.Philip，AMCA按照官方信息就不是隐形战机，livefist写过详细的介绍。但是呢，它就应该是隐形的，我觉得官方到现在都还没清醒鼓励。也许j-20会使得AMCA指标发生改变？让我们试目以待 ————————————————————
Philip
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 14:01 David ,I agree with you.How can he evaluate PLAF maintenance capability? What about weaponry? The PRC have made huge strides in missile tech from AWST and other western media reports,plus,the PLAF will soon have several of its own AWACS/AEW aircraft flying.To my mind,the PRC plans to overwhelm its opposition anywhere through superior numbers,in the air,on the ground and on and under the sea.Numbers DO matter and superior weapon systems by a PRC opponent cannot be everywhere at the same time.We've already had studies showing how vastly superior numbers of PLAF Flankers can neutralise USAF F-22s operating out of Guam in ops closer to the PRC coastline/Taiwan.Adding J-20s to its large numbers of Flankers will only complicate the US's task even more. David, 我同意你的观点。他凭什么评论解放军空军的后勤能力？武备？根据西方媒体的说法，中国在导弹技术方面进步巨大。另外，解放军空军即将拥有自己的预警机。在我看来，中国打算用数量的方式在各个领域都压倒任何对手，空中，地面，水下。数量绝对是管用的，而中国的对手不可能在同一时间任何位置都有更先进的武器系统。我们已经有研究说明，在关岛以外更靠近中国海岸线或者台湾的战场上，大量的解放军J-11系列战机是如何能抗衡美军F-22机群的。再加上j-20，美军的任务会更加困难。 ———————————————————— shiv
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 14:37
引用： A new videohttp://www.56.com/u45/v_NTc3NTI4NTA.html56网的视频 Comments:1) J-20 takeoff without afterburner as David pointed out2) The ailerons can be seen working.3) The two seat J-10 (not J-20) is in the air 12 seconds after the burner lights up. 我的看法1.j-20起飞不用开加力，正如David所说2.副翼可以看出来在动作3.双座的j-10在启动后12秒升空 ———————————————————— Christopher Sidor
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 16:59
Does India have the capability of detecting this 5th generation fighter of PLAAF once it starts flying over Tibet and/or attempts to enter our airspace in north east or north western Himalayas? 当解放军空军的5代机飞临西藏或者试图进入我们东北部、西喜马拉雅的领空时，印度有能力探测到吗？
———————————————————— geeth
Post subject: Re: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 17:32
I never knew it is that simple to make a stealth plane! How come the Russians with their vast experience were labouring for so long..? 我从不知道，原来搞隐形战机那容易啊！那为什么俄国人有着丰富的经验却要折腾那么久？
———————————————————— johnny_m
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 20:42
No weapon bays meaning there is some serious work to be done on that. I am with Philip we need to focus on the FGFA as of now and increase production capability at HAL. The plane is just too big for PAF to even consider it.
没有弹仓意味着还有很多艰苦的工作要做。我赞同philip，我们需要从现在开始专注于FGFA，并增强HAL的生产能力。 这飞机对巴基斯坦空军来说太大了，想都别想。
———————————————————— johnny_m
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 21:26
引用Quote:Johnny_m - T-50 is already flying!! Why do you think that India signed up for PAK-FA?T-50已经飞过了！你觉得印度为何签约买PAK-FA？ Yes but we are not getting the Vanila T 50 the FGFA will only fly in 2017 and we are looking at 2020s for Induction. China can make Planes at a faster rate than both India and Russia, HAL will have its hands full with MRCA, LCA MK2 and a host of other programmes, serious measures are to be taken to increase rate of production as well as giving more emphasis to FGFA, Russians almost never deliver on time unless pushed hard. 是的，但我们还没拿到T50。FGFA会在2017年首飞，要等等2020年后才会服役。中国造飞机的速度比印俄都快，而HAL的资源会被MRCA、LCA MK2以及其他项目占得满满的。必须加强措施加快生产率，同时还要更加强调FGFA。如果不给俄国人强大的压力，他们从不准时交货。 ———————————————————— Singha
Post subject: China Military WatchPosted: 11 Jan 2011 21:50
there is probably room for a smallish internal bay with 4-6 AAMs (the F22 carries 6). the closely spaced engines rule out a second tandem bay.I am sure stealth weapons station could be developed for the innermost pylon of CFT area for smaller wvr weapons or maybe change the game and carry big aams there too.
应该有空间布置一个较小的内置弹仓，容纳4-6枚空空导弹（F-22装6枚）。窄距布置的发动机排除了串列第二弹仓的可能性。我确定，隐形战机可以在保形油箱的区域设计内置挂架挂载较小的格斗弹，或者可以试试颠覆传统在那挂载大型空空导弹。
———————————————————— Vivek K
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 22:08
Johnny_m - I'm sure that the J-20 development is what made GOI (generally takes decades to buy one aircraft) decide quickly on the PAK-FA. Please do not forget that by 2017 there will be LCAs, MMRCAs (125 - 200), upgraded M2k, upgraded Mig-29s, plus Jaguars and of course the MKI (270+). So India will not be defenceless at the time. These will be supported by 5 Phalcon AWACs and the indegenous AEWC plus Akash batteries for AD.
回复johnny，我确信j-20的成功会让印度政府（通常需要几十年才买一架飞机）在PAK-FA上迅速作出决定。别忘了，到2017年，我们会有LCA，MMRCA（125-200架），升级版的M2000, 升级版的mig-29，加上美洲虎，当然还有su-30mki（270架以上）。所以，印度到那时可不会毫无防御能力。而且这些机群会得到5架法尔康预警机、国产的预警机以及akash导弹阵地的支援，以获取制空权。
———————————————————— Cain Marko
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 11 Jan 2011 23:52
BRFite 引用
Vivek K wrote:Johnny_m - I'm sure that the J-20 development is what made GOI (generally takes decades to buy one aircraft) decide quickly on the PAK-FA. Please do not forget that by 2017 there will be LCAs, MMRCAs (125 - 200), upgraded M2k, upgraded Mig-29s, plus Jaguars and of course the MKI (270+). So India will not be defenceless at the time. These will be supported by 5 Phalcon AWACs and the indegenous AEWC plus Akash batteries for AD. 125-200 MRCA? Good lord man, they are not even close to a downselect yet. Expect only 20 odd nos by 2017 optimistically (if they sign by 2012). Has the M2k deal been signed off on yet - there is another impasse iirc? IAF should have 40-60 LCA, 270 MKI, 60 Fulcrums SMTs, and about 20 MMRCA, 100 Bisons, and possibly 200 Jag+Floggers. About 450 BVR capable multirole fighters, 200 pure strike a/c if all goes as planned 125-200架的MRCA？我的老大，他们甚至连零头都搞不定。到2017年，最乐观的估计（如果2012年就签下合同）也只有20来架次。如果M2000的合同取消的话，会是另一个僵局。印度空军应该要有40-60架LCA，270架mki，60架mig-29升级版，以及大约20架次MMRCA，100架mig-21，还有大概200架的美洲虎+mig-23. 如果一切按照计划，会有大约450架具有超视距空战能力的战斗机，200架纯攻击机。 I am hoping that this J20 causes a LOT of dhoti shivering - and the pace of procurement is ramped up considerably. My guess is that if they find the J20 maturing quickly (which is quite likely since the chinese don't show anything unless they are sure it is somewhat mature ala J10), the IAF will land up buying a few PAKFAs (not FGFAs) ad hoc ala T90s, and I wouldn't blame them. Perhaps the MKI MLU will start earlier as well. 我希望这个J-20能引起极大量的恐惧——这样获取战机的步子就会大幅度加快。我估计，如果他们发现j20很快就完善了（这个很有可能，因为中国人在没有确认达到足够的完成度之前，不会透露任何东西。J10就是例子），那么印度空军就会赶快买上几架PAKFA（还不是FGFA)就好像买T90那样。我不会责怪他们。此外，也许MKI会提早开始中期延寿升级。 Further, the legacy birds (teens, fulcrum) and even Gripen may as well kiss the MRCA goodbye. Rafale vs. Typhoon - a treat for BR jingoes should be on offer.此外，传统战机（F-18、MIG29）以及鹰狮都要和MRCA计划吻别。阵风 VS 台风—英帝国沙文主义的威胁，应该被采购。
———————————————————— Vivek K
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 00:12
引用：Cain Marko wrote:125-200 MRCA? Good lord man, they are not even close to a downselect yet. Expect only 20 odd nos by 2017 optimistically (if they sign by 2012). Point taken CM. However, how many of the J-20 would be flying by then? By 2017 the 270 MKIs would be in service though! And the FGFA would also be nearing IOC by then(?).
引用CM。然而，到那时会有多少j-20能飞上天？到2017年，那270架MKI仍然在服役！而且到那时，FGFA也应该接近形成战斗力了。 ———————————————————— RamaY
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 01:19
引用Cain Marko wrote:I am hoping that this J20 causes a LOT of dhoti shivering - and the pace of procurement is ramped up considerably. My guess is that if they find the J20 maturing quickly (which is quite likely since the chinese don't show anything unless they are sure it is somewhat mature ala J10), the IAF will land up buying a few PAKFAs (not FGFAs) ad hoc ala T90s, and I wouldn't blame them. Perhaps the MKI MLU will start earlier as well. The sad part is that people were sitting on their bottoms during demand-rules period and will now pay dearly for their laziness as the suppliers demand inflated prices to accommodate the demand schedules.
杯具的是，在买方市场的时候人们只是坐着看，而现在就要为他们的懒惰付出高昂的代价，因为现在是卖方坐地起价。
———————————————————— SaiK
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 02:24
Finally, one may feel a little ease that PAK-FA will not be chinese interest since they have their own fighter. Perhaps a saturn engine is the only one. They have long way to go, in the sense, AESA radar, passive sensors, and so many 5th gen aspects, just the shaping alone doesnt get there. BTW, if pakis acquire about 100 odd J20s by 2020, we should be good with FGFA is what I read from other poster who wanted us to react to this. Rather react, I would say proactively, ddm shud support local programs and not condemn it. like it or not, ddm will "REACT".. and the more once pakis start dancing. 终于，大家感到了一点轻松，因为中国对PAK-FA不感兴趣，他们有自己的飞机。也许一台土星公司的发动机，是仅有的那台。他们还有很长的路要走，搜索探测方面，AESA雷达、被动传感器，以及如此多的5代机特征技术，仅有个外形可不代表成功。 顺便说一下，如果巴基斯坦人在2020年得到了大概100来架j20，我们应该好好搞FGFA。有人在别的帖子说希望大家都反对FGFA，我想说的是，别搞反对，DDM要支持国产计划，而不是谴责它。 不管你喜不喜欢，DDM会做出“反应”，而且当巴基斯坦人开始动手之时，反应会更强。 【译者注：DDM不知道是什么的缩写，这句话翻得很勉强，烦请指教】———————————————————— 【译者注：该论坛的一个超长贴……】shiv
Post subject: Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011Posted: 12 Jan 2011 06:20
I think the mistake that is made about Chinese capabilities by many people who use the lay media as a source of information (such as us) is that we are colored by western opinions. We cheerfully quote Carlo Copp or Bill Sweetman and other "experts" whose views may have little relevance to India. And those people are always talking from the viewpoint of their own nations and we have no business taking their views as seriously relevant for us.Mons Veneris，我觉得我们对中国能力的误读来源于某些人，他们的信息来源就是缺乏专业知识的媒体（比如说我们的），我们都被西方的观点左右。我们乐意引用Carlo Copp 或者 Bill Sweetman式的专家评论，其实他们的评论和印度没什么关系。这些人都是从他们自己国家的视角出发谈问题，我们用不着太看重他们的观点。 China being "a little faster than expected" or "several decades behind" is a western viewpoint.中国“比想象的快了一点”或者“落后几十年”都是西方的观点。 I don't think anyone who seriously follows Indian science and tech has any illusions about China - although a bit of fun at China expense is always necessary for an internet forum. Unfortunately - while following western media we do tend to dhoti shiver when the western commentator dhoti-shivers (or soot-boot-shivers) and we tend to go "Yay" when gora aadmi says "OK no problem". Gora aadmi often makes bullshit assessments about others. 我觉得认真对待印度科学和技术的人不会产生中国幻象，不过网络上拿中国开支取点乐还是有的。不幸的是，随着西方媒体（的散布），（我们成了跟随者）当西方评论员说印度恐慌（或者之类的恐慌）我们就变的恐慌，当gora aadmi【可能是评论员或者作家什么的】说“没问题”我们就说“欧耶”。Gora aadmi经常对别人做些垃圾评论。 China has built a black painted futuristic looking aircraft and flown it once. That puts China ahead of every country on earth that has never designed and flown any aircraft and indicates an active design bureau and science establishment where people are given the freedom to work and protected from criticism the way the LCA team was protected from external and home grown contempt. If the system works it will produce some results.中国做了一个黑色非传统外形的飞机并且试飞了一次。这就使得中国领先于世界上还没有设计和试飞过飞机的国家，这也说明存在着保护员工自由，使他们免受批评的设计局和科研机构，LCA团队就是以这种方式免受外界和内部的轻视。如果这种体系正常运行就能产生一定的成果。 But in high tech the race is even longer. My ballpark estimate of the number of flying airliners in the world today may be 20 or 30,000. 95% of the engines are sourced from a handful of western companies. The reliability and efficiency of those engines is noteworthy with some models having notched up tens of millions of hours of failure free flight. This is not an easy record for anyone to match. But one must start somewhere. The problem with starting late is that you will be behind for years. If you create a reliable design X - it will take you some years to prove it, and some more years after that to modify it to become lighter and more fuel efficient. Incremental improvements like this have been done on western engines for decades now resulting in a situation where the newest engines from the west are lighter and more fuel efficient than they used to be. That means aircraft can fly further with less fuel and higher payloads. This means that a "stealth aircraft" from the west with such an efficient engine will have those advantages and western observers will always look at Chinese designs (or future Indian designs) and say "nyahaha - they are 20 years behind" and the Ajai Shuklas of this world will always curse fellow Indians for being 20 years behind. It is only ignorance that causes this. 不过高科技的征途还是很长的。我粗略的估算现在世界客机有20000-30000架。95%的飞机发动机供应商都是少数几家西方公司。他们的发动机可靠性和高效性引人注目是因为有些型号已经创下了几千万小时的无故障飞行的记录。这些记录任谁都不容易打破。可是总有个开始的。后发者的问题就是你还是会落后些年。如果你弄了个可靠的设计X——你要花些年头却验证他，验证完后还要花更多的年头改进以使它更轻，燃油效率更高。这些增量试验已经花了西方公司几十年来完成，最后的结果就是西方的发动机比你现在用的更轻更节油。这就意味着飞机能用更少的油飞得更远，载重更多。装着这种高效发动机的西方“隐形飞机”具备以上优点，西方的观察家们就会说中国的设计（以后是印度的设计）“啧啧~~他们落后20年”，然后这个世界的Ajai Shuklas们就会诅咒落后20年的印度，可是他们都忽略了背后的原因。 You can be sure that a Chinese engine may not have all these refinements - but it will do the job. It is easy to forget that the USSR caused soot-boot shivering in the west by using stainless steel (MiG 25) and engines that needed replacements after 100 hours of use. Even on this forum we have mocked our own Russian derived aircraft for having an airframe life of 1000 hours while equivalent Western aircraft are touted to have 3000 hours. This is basically Macaulay speaking. We have a lot of that. 可以肯定，中国的发动机不是最精致的——但它却管用。大家总是忘记，苏联用不锈钢造的飞机（mig25）配上每隔100小时就要更换的发动机，给西方带来了多大的恐慌。即便是在我们这论坛，我们也总是嘲笑自己的俄式战机只有1000小时的飞行寿命，而西方的却能达到3000小时。这些基本上是麦考利的调调，我们已经听得够多了。 Ultimately progress is about respecting what your own people do. Technology is never easy and there are always choices and compromises to be made. if country X takes one road or makes a particular choice it does not mean that your own people are morons for not taking that road or making that choice. By all means respect the Chinese for their achievements, and of course do not use western derived examples to show that they are useless. But at the same time there is absolutely no need to beat one's breasts and imagine that nothing is happening in India. We know where we need to go and will take our own route to get there using what we have.不幸的是，进步的大小取决于你的人民做了多少。技术从来也不简单，总是需要做出抉择和妥协。如果某国走了某条道路或者做了某个选择，并不意味着，只要你不走这条路或者做同样的选择你就是笨蛋。无论如何，我们要对中国人取得的成绩表示尊敬，当然也别用西方的例子来说明中国人的东西不管用。但是与此同时，显然也不必捶胸顿足想象着印度手足无措。我们对目标很明确，而且会根据我们的条件走自己的道路实现目标。 评论集5 印度时报【译者注：主流媒体，印度的喉舌之一。当然，这里的评论还是很欢乐的，充满了印度人民的喜感】 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/China-takes-US-head-on-tests-stealth-jet-during-Gatess-visit/articleshow/7265480.cms ———————————————————— Williams (Pune) 16 mins ago (01:12 PM)Keep it up.... Keep going.....请继续。。。接着来。。。Agree (1) 支持Disagree (0) 反对Recommend (0) 推荐Offensive———————————————————— Sane Indian (Hyderabad) 1 hr ago (12:01 PM)The comments I've read so far illustrate how ignorant Indians are about external affairs and many pretend to know everything.我到目前为止，读到的评论都说明印度人对于外界的情势是多么的无知，许多人还装作什么都知道。Agree (10)Disagree (1)Recommend (4)Offensive———————————————————— banda (mumbai) 1 hr ago (11:42 AM)Chinese make. Treat it with a lot of caution. The world knows the quality of Chinese products." Buy one, buy another one". is what people say about Chinese products. Now with China into manufacture of fighter planes, they will surely have to train a lot of pilots for replacement of the lost ones.中国制造。同样要对它留心点。世界人民都知道中国货质量如何。“买一件，再买一件（备用）”。这就是人们对中国货的评价。现在中国进军战斗机制造，他们必须要训练许多飞行员，用来替补那些飞机失事死亡的。Agree (7)Disagree (13)Recommend (2)Offensive———————————————————— Jagadish Baliga (Mumbai) 2 hrs ago (11:02 AM)Dear America, There is a old saying-"Feeding and grooming the Snake". The snake will not distinguish between good & bad. It will bite any one coming its way. You have fed & groomed a Dragon.亲爱的美国，有句古话叫“养蛇为患”。蛇可不会区分好坏。它会咬伤前行途中的任何人。你们则是养了条龙。Agree (20)Disagree (12)Recommend (7)Offensive———————————————————— Rage (Washington) replies to Jagadish Baliga 1 hr ago (11:53 AM)Do you know the founder of NASA's JPL (the birth place of rocket) was a Chinese, who later became China's head of rocket program. The first ever plane at Boeing was designed by a Chinese young man out of MIT ? It seems like the Chinese fed the Americans quite a bit too.你知不知道，火箭的摇篮，NASA 喷气推进实验室的创建者是一个华人，他后来成为中国火箭项目的领头人。波音第一架飞机是由毕业于MIT的一个中国小伙设计的？看起来中国人为美国付出的也够多了。【译者注，前者是指钱学森，后者是波音首任总工程师王助】———————————————————— Mantis (Edwards AFB California USA) 3 hrs ago (09:38 AM)In a funk? - hardly. Another arms race is unnecessary, especially over a plane whose capabilities are untested. India is more likely to find its air space tested by the J-20 in the near future. The good ole USA will be there to watch your back - funk and all.惊恐不安？-别。另一场军备竞赛是没必要的，特别是为一架性能未经测试的飞机。印度在不久的未来将会看到J20不断用印度领空进行测试。而我们美国，这个老好人将会罩着你们所有的麻烦。Agree (7)Disagree (19)Recommend (3)Offensive———————————————————— To Mantis (Chennai) replies to Mantis 3 hrs ago (09:58 AM)Well said, the Indian indigenous designed T-50 will be there to counter the Chinese J-20. Even Russia will have to buy T-50 and other high tech items from India.说的好。印度本土设计的T50将会对抗中国的J20。即便是俄罗斯，也将不得不从印度购买T-50和其他高科技产品。Agree (13)Disagree (26)Recommend (9)Offensive———————————————————— suresh (bangalore) replies to To Mantis 38 mins ago (12:50 PM)radar cannot detect j-20, that is the speciality of J-20回To Mantis：雷达无法侦测到J20，这就是J20的特别之处。Agree (0)Disagree (0)Recommend (0)Offensive———————————————————— Troll (India) replies to To Mantis 1 hr ago (11:43 AM)Sure sure, considering the overtime and overcost on the LCA, I am pretty sure the T-50 will probably cost huge in comparison to J-20. Further, by the time we are ready to test it, the chinese would have probably moved on to J-2000 :)) Good luck anyways!!回To Mantis：当然啦！考虑到LCA项目投入如此多的时间和金钱，我非常肯定的是，T50与J20相比，肯定花费巨大。而且，当我们可以开始测试的时候，中国人可能已经开始搞J-2000了 :)) 不管怎样，祝我们好运！！———————————————————— Kt (Chennai) replies to To Mantis 1 hr ago (11:33 AM)You've got to be kidding me. T50 is a russian plane. India is buying it from the Russia and also partnering in developing certain technologies.回 To Mantis你丫肯定是在耍我。T50是俄罗斯飞机。印度从俄罗斯购买它，并和俄罗斯合作开发一些特定的技术。Agree (12)Disagree (4)Recommend (2)Offensive———————————————————— JK (India) replies to Kt 1 hr ago (11:45 AM)LOL!! I don't believe 8 people have agreed with him so far. It seems some of us really love to live in delusion.回楼上：我简直没法相信，居然到目前为止，有8个人同意他的说法。看来我们当中一些人还真是喜欢生活在幻觉中。
网贴翻译论坛：http://www.ptfcn.com/ptfcn/js/232/ 感谢楼主的辛苦翻译，超人啊，这么长！！！！！！！！！！ 部分评论很搞笑，比如关于张召重的。。。 美、欧、日、韩、印——这些国家的网民，居然是印度人最有理性，很震惊，相比起来日韩都是垃圾，这让我对印度人开始有点好感了 我觉得三哥还是先想办法给“歼敌者”装上反应堆或者什么其他东西，再来评论J20吧~ 好长啊，看得时间紧张的我泪流满面。。。。。担忧舍不得跳过。。。唉。。。。 本帖最后由 三季稻 于 2011-1-13 15:42 编辑
he he, Guy, PLS remember his face.....never trust his words any more..the guy is PLAN rear admiral Zhang Zhaozhong, PLA's actual throat on public medias like CCTV.呵呵，同志们，记住这个人，永远不要再相信他的话了。这人是中国海军少将张召忠，解放军在诸如CCTV等媒体上的实际发言人。The guy assertively denied the existence of Chinese 5G bird project in one intervew of CCTV last year,after one PLAAF marshal leaked that " Chinese 5G bird would enter into service in about 7-8 years."这人在去年CCTV的访谈节目中断然否认中国五代战机的存在。之前曾有空军司令员透露“中国的五代战机将在七到八年内服役。”
张局长的忽悠之名已经走出国门，传播到三哥那儿了！张局长您又立功了！
Here is the wonderful performance of Rear Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong in the interveiw of CCTV last year.下面是张召忠少将去年在CCTV节目中的精彩表现：His performance can match Mr. Sahhaf during Iraq war II.他的表演水准直追二次伊战中萨哈夫的表现：his word: " I mean that one modified type of J10......."他说：“我是说那是架十改。。。”His word:" ......now are wrongly reported as our 5G bird...."他说：“。。。错被报道成我军的五代战机。。。”His word: ".....It took yankees over 20 years to develope F22 ........"他说：“。。。美国佬花了20多年研制F22啊。。。”His word: " .....however, now we even have not started developing our 5G aircraft project yet......"他说：“。。。不管怎样，我们现在还没启动我们的五代战机项目。。。” 这么长，真是辛苦。 本帖最后由 三季稻 于 2011-1-13 16:36 编辑
badguy2000
Join Date:May 2009
Posts:2,769
Originally Posted by tony4562
That guy is idiot, his nickname is Chang al-Sahaf named after Saddam's information minister. During the gulf war II he made lots of fearless predictions on national TV that Saddam's army would fight the Americans to the last man.
But then again i tend to think that underneath J20 probably has more in common with J10 than anything else.
引用楼上：
那个人就是个傻X。他小名Chang al-Sahaf，跟着萨达姆的新闻部长起的名字。在第二次海湾战争中，他在国家电视台上作出许多无畏的预言，称萨达姆的军队将会和美军战斗到最后一个人。
但我还是倾向于认为，J20的内里和J10最为相像。
well, the guy in fact is a wise man who pretend to be a idiot.
after all, not everyone can pretend to be Sahaf.
我倒觉得那家伙非常聪明，他只是装的像个傻X。
毕竟，没有人能够扮演萨哈夫。
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很长的评论，感谢楼主的转载，非常棒！谢谢！ Rage (Washington) replies to Jagadish Baliga
1 hr ago (11:53 AM)
Do you know the founder of NASA's JPL (the birth place of rocket) was a Chinese, who later became China's head of rocket program. The first ever plane at Boeing was designed by a Chinese young man out of MIT ? It seems like the Chinese fed the Americans quite a bit too.
你知不知道，火箭的摇篮，NASA 喷气推进实验室的创建者是一个华人，他后来成为中国火箭项目的领头人。波音第一架飞机是由毕业于MIT的一个中国小伙设计的？看起来中国人为美国付出的也够多了。
【译者注，前者是指钱学森，后者是波音首任总工程师王助】
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缅怀钱老！ -------呵呵，几位老巴的网友谈起中国的飞机发动机，真是“如数家珍”啊！ 汗...... 话说知己知彼百战不殆
近日看了不少外国人关于J-20的留言 发展中国家的印度是相对理性的 欧美韩日的网民是如此的纠结 不愿意承认却又不得不承认 那只好让他们继续YY了 辛苦了楼主 顶楼主 我靠，系统鄙视我，被灌水了 偶英语太差，因此能通过楼主的翻译了解更多的反映，真的很好。看来印度人也不是向很多论坛中介绍的哪么无知。非常感谢楼主！ 翻译也是猛人！致敬 翻译辛苦了，看完了。 badguy2000
Join Date:May 2009
Posts:2,769
Originally Posted by tony4562
That guy is idiot, ...
三季稻 发表于 2011-1-13 15:46 http://bbs.m4.cn/images/common/back.gif
张召忠那段配上这图太有喜感了。