老外读水浒原著，百般煎熬不死心
水浒传 Who wants to join?原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：白玉京
http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/29794-project-for-2011-%E6%B0%B4%E6%B5%92%E4%BC%A0/
Project for 2011: 水浒传 Who wants to join?
#1 renzhe
First Episodes Captain
Chinese:Reasonable
Location:Algarve
Posted 14 December 2010 - 02:43 AM
水浒传 (also known as "Water Margin" or "Outlaws of the Marsh") is one of the four great classical novels of Chinese literature. I'm going to read it in 2011 and I'm looking for people to join me.
It is said that you haven't really learned Chinese until you've read at least one of the great classics. Well, I have the 120 chapter version here and I'm going to read it. We've had projects which covered books, short stories, TV series, comics and movies, but I don't think that we've ever really tackled one of these beasts. This will not be something most of us can finish in a month, so it's not technically a "Book of the Month", though the idea is the same.
《水浒传》（又称“水边”或“沼泽暴徒”）是中国四大古典小说之一。我准备2011年读这本书，征集同好。
有个说法，没读过一部经典名著，就不算真正了解中国。好，我弄到了120回版，我要读。我定了个计划，涵盖了书，市井传说，电视剧，漫画和电影，但我还是觉得对付这个庞然大物力不从心。我们中的大多数人不可能在一个月内完工，虽然理念一样，技术上，它不是“每月一书”。
Some reasons for reading 水浒传:
- it's a classic.
- it is a story about 108 outlaws, so there's lots of action.
- it's considered to be one of the early precursors of the wuxia genre, but it's not magical like 西游记.
- it is a classic.
- I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that it is less commonly read than the other three, especially 红楼梦, so chances are that most of us haven't read the original.
- your credibility with native speakers will skyrocket.
读水浒传的一些原因：
- 经典。
- 这是一个一百零八个亡命徒的故事，注定很火爆。
- 它被认为是武侠作品的发端之一，不魔幻，不像西游记。
- 经典。
- 我可能说的不对，但我感觉，这书的阅读体验不同于其他三部名著，尤其不同于红楼梦，我们大多数人都没有看过原著，这是个机会。
- 中文母语人士会对你刮目相看。
This won't be easy, and it shouldn't be your first book. The language is not much harder than Jin Yong, but it's 500 years old, and there's more than a 1000 pages of it. Still, we have quite a few posters here who can manage to get through it comfortably. Upper intermediate and advanced people with a few thousand pages of reading behind them can probably survive the ordeal without lasting damage.
看这书不容易，第一本书别看这个。其语言与金庸相比倒不是太困难，但它成书500年了，且有1000多页。不过我们这里藏龙卧虎，高人指点之下会顺利一些。有上千页阅读量的中上水平的人或许可以经受住考验，毫发无损。
Since this is one of the most important Chinese books in history, it would also make sense to have beginners read one of the translations and join the project in this way. Here we have several really good options, including Sidney Shapiro's "Outlaws of the Marsh", Pearl Buck's "All Men are Brothers", and Alex and John Dent-Young "The Marshes of Mount Liang". However, I think that the focus should be on the original.
由于该书是中国史上最重要的书籍之一，对初学者来说，读译本也是很有意义的，加入我们。我们有几个非常不错的选择，包括沙博理的“沼泽暴徒”，赛珍珠的“四海之内皆兄弟”，Alex和John Dent-Young的“梁山沼泽”。不过，我认为，重点还是原著。
So, that's my idea. I was hoping to start sometime in late January or early February, which means that there's plenty of time to get your hands on a copy (you don't want to read this online). Is anybody interested, or should I fight my way through this alone? I know rob07 worked his way through 红楼梦, which is similar in scope and difficulty. Perhaps it's time for the next one? :)
这是我的想法。我希望能在一月下旬或二月上旬开始，这样你有足够的时间入手一本（你肯定不想在线读）。大家感兴趣吗？还是我得独自奋战？我知道rob07修练完了广度和深度上与之类似的《红楼梦》。要不再干他一本？：）
评论翻译:
#2 imron AdminLocation:国外
Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:52 AM
It sounds like an interesting project, but I'm probably going to give reading along a miss. At the moment my aim is to read a ton of modern literature to help build up vocab and language sense before starting on any of the classics. I might change my mind if things look interesting or if there's a lot of active participation, but I've also already lined up most of my reading material for next year and don't want to have those books just sitting idle on the shelf (it's great motivation to see the pile of unread books shrinking :))
这项目挺有趣，但我可能没法奉陪。当下我的着眼点是要读成吨的现代文学，先积累词汇和语感，然后再读经典。如果确实有趣，我可能改变主意，积极参与进来。但阅读材料已经排到了明年，我不希望那些书束之高阁（它们会桑心的：））
#3 roddy 三俗齐全Chinese:糕急
Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:26 AM
Wow, big project. I like it.
Also, there will be TV and audio versions as well, I imagine - probably multiple versions. Might be another form of support for anyone who needs it.
哇，大项目。来劲。
此外，还有电视和评书以及，我想可能有许多版本。希望有帮助。
#4 gato
Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:08 AMGood idea.
I highly recommend the fully annotated version of 水浒传 published by 中国少年儿童出版社. The complete text is included and is much more extensively annotated than almost any other version because it's intended for young readers.
有搞头
我强烈推荐中国少年儿童出版社的注释版。文本完整，注解最详尽，因为它面向的是年轻读者。
水浒传(全本注释版)(全四册).
作 者：迟赵俄，余以德 校注整理.
出 版 社：中国少年儿童出版社.
There is also an audio 评书 version of 水浒 available for download on verycd. 评书, as you might know, are oral version of stories adapted from books, since in the old days many people were illiterate and could not read books themselves. The storytellers are not reading the books verbatim but are adding a good deal of embellishments and personality of their own. Many of the storytellers become famous in their own right. 评书 are still popular on the radio in China, particularly in the north.
《评书: 水浒全传》(单田芳)全360回.
还有评书版的水浒，可以去VeryCD下载。评书，你可能知道，以书为足本讲故事，因为过去很多人是文盲，无法自己读书。说书人不是照本宣科，而是以自己的个性加以润色。许多说书人因自己鲜明的风格成名。，中国电台仍然流行评书，特别是在北方。
#5 aristotle1990 Chinese:人外有人，天外有天Location:US
Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:31 AM
It's pretty damn hard, even for Chinese people. Try your luck with chapter one here.http://www.purepen.com/shz/001.htm
就算是中国人读，也太难了。先试试第一回。
#6 rob07 Chinese:爱好者Posted 14 December 2010 - 11:49 AMGreat project.
My first contact with Chinese culture was when a friend lent me a copy of Sidney Shapiro's "Outlaws of the Marsh" (a great read). What I found the most fascinating was how the "good" characters in the book sing songs about how much they like killing innocent people for fun. Nevertheless, the good characters are presented as highly moral people, it is just that they are members of a brotherhood of warriors and the code of morality they live by only recognises real moral obligations to other warriors. So if you can manipulate someone to your advantage by murdering a young child, murdering the young child is not only nothing to feel guilty about, it is the correct moral choice according to the moral code pushed by the book. The book also takes mysogyny to an extreme that can be very funny, probably unintentionally. Real men aren't interested in women, apparently.
As I've already read a translation, I don't see myself reading the whole thing, but I would be interested in the discussion and may read the odd chapter here and there.
这项目NB了。
我第一次接触中国文化，是一个朋友借给我的沙博理的“沼泽暴徒”（读来爆爽）译本。我发现最引人入胜的是“好”汉在书中唱，他们为了好玩杀害多少了无辜的人。坑爹的是，好汉是有德之人，他们只承认兄弟间的肝胆相照。所以，如果杀个孩子有助于上层次长功力，那么杀幼儿不仅不该愧疚，相反，这正是这本书里推崇的正确的道德准则。书中把厌女症推崇备至，到了可笑的地步，可能是无意的。纯爷们不鸟娘们，显然。
我读过译本，就不读原版了，但我有兴趣参加讨论，或许零碎读几个回目。
此外，还有电视和评书以及，我想可能有许多版本。希望有帮助。
They are just doing a big budget new version with Jackie Chan as Wu Song.
他们正在策划新版，成龙演武松。
#7 gato Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:16 PM
就算是中国人读，也太难了。
That's true. 红楼梦 would be an easier read, being almost 400 years more recent than 水浒. 红楼梦 was written in the 18th century, whereas 水浒传 was in the 14th.
See here, for example:
没错。《红楼梦》相对容易，比《水浒》晚了400年。《红楼梦》成书于18世纪，《水浒传》是14世纪。
比如：
第三回 贾雨村夤缘复旧职林黛玉抛父进京都
作者：曹雪芹
黛玉方进入房时,只见两个人搀着一位鬓发如银的老母迎上来,黛玉便知是他外祖母.方欲拜见时,早被他外祖母一把搂入怀中,心肝儿肉叫着大哭起来.当下地下侍立之人,无不掩面涕泣,黛玉也哭个不住.一时众人慢慢解劝住了,黛玉方拜见了外祖母. ____此即冷子兴所云之史氏太君,贾赦贾政之母也.当下贾母一一指与黛玉:"这是你大舅母, 这是你二舅母,这是你先珠大哥的媳妇珠大嫂子."黛玉一一拜见过.贾母又说: "请姑娘们来.今日远客才来,可以不必上学去了."众人答应了一声,便去了两个.
不一时,只见三个奶嬷嬷并五六个丫鬟,簇拥着三个姊妹来了.第一个肌肤微丰, 合中身材, 腮凝新荔,鼻腻鹅脂,温柔沉默,观之可亲.第二个削肩细腰,长挑身材,鸭蛋脸面, 俊眼修眉,顾盼神飞,文彩精华,见之忘俗.第三个身量未足,形容尚小.其钗环裙袄, 三人皆是一样的妆饰.黛玉忙起身迎上来见礼,互相厮认过,大家归了坐.丫鬟们斟上茶来.不过说些黛玉之母如何得病,如何请医服药,如何送死发丧.不免贾母又伤感起来,因说:"我这些儿女,所疼者独有你母,今日一旦先舍我而去,连面也不能一见,今见了你,我怎不伤心!"说着,搂了黛玉在怀,又呜咽起来.众人忙都宽慰解释, 方略略止住.
#8 roddy 三俗齐全Chinese:糕急Posted 14 December 2010 - 12:32 PM
Come on folks, he knows it's difficult and he's said so - he's looking for people to read it with him, not tell him he should do something else instead.
怎么了伙计们，他知道很难，他说想找人作伴一起读，别说泄气话。
#9 feihong Chinese:比较高级吧Location:芝加哥（左右）Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:21 PM
Renzhe, you are Chinese-learning beast.
Renzhe，你太畜生了。
佩服，佩服.
Sadly, I don't think I'm quite ready for this. And the comic book versions of 水浒传 don't seem very faithful to the original text, to say nothing of the video games. I do have an abridged kids version, though, so maybe I'll crack that open.
可悲的是，我还没做好准备。水浒传漫画书版本并不非常忠实于原文，更别说视频游戏了。我有一套删节过的儿童版，也许我该开封。
#10 rob07 Chinese:爱好者
Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:34 PM
I don't think 水浒传 should be at all difficult for an educated Chinese person. I've read a couple of chapters and skimmed a couple more and I agree with Renzhe that the language is not much harder than Jin Yong.
我认为《水浒传》对受过教育的中国人而言应该不难。我跳着读了几个章节，我同意Renzhe，语言相比比金庸没有太大困难。
I also don't think that 水浒传 is harder than 红楼梦. Both are written in baihua and the few hundred years between 水浒传 and 红楼梦 as well as between 红楼梦 and the present day make surprisingly little difference. You can see from the 红楼梦 extract quoted by gato that it is basically modern Chinese despite being written hundreds of years ago; similarly, the language between 水浒传 and 红楼梦 is pretty much the same despite the time gap. The storylines in 水浒传 are generally very straightforward (aa hits bb), unlike 红楼梦 where there is a lot of poetry, allusions, wordplay, complicated customs etc.
还有我觉得《水浒传》不比《红楼梦》难。都是白话，《水浒传》《红楼梦》之间几百年间的语言差距和《红楼梦》与现代汉语之间的差距相比并不大差别不大。看gato引用的《红楼梦》片段，它基本上是现代汉语，尽管是几百年前写的;同样，《水浒传》和《红楼梦》的语言几乎是相同的，尽管有时间上的差距。水浒传故事情节一般都非常简单（AA揍BB），不像《红楼梦》有大量的诗歌，典故，双关语，复杂的桥段等
The hardest thing, for a Chinese person or Western learner, is finding the time and motivation to read something over 1000 pages long.
对于一个中国人或西方学生来说，最困难的是，你得有阅读1000多页东西的时间和动机。
#11 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 14 December 2010 - 07:55 PM
Wow, I was expecting zero answers, and we actually have a party here! I do appreciate all the comments.
哇，我本来都有0回复的觉悟，没想到都能拍建党伟业了！感谢所有回复。
This is not going to be a walk in the park, and I'm quite aware of this. I was also expecting many people to pass because of the difficulty, and that's OK. Imron told me in a PM that he'd like to build up some more reading first, and that might very well be a more sound strategy (his reading is leaps and bounds ahead of mine anyway). On the other hand, jumping head-first into something that's hard has worked for me in the past (with Jin Yong in particular), so I'm hoping that this will push me forward after I get to grips with it. I've been reading short stories and comics throughout 2010, and I feel like it's time to tackle something longer again. And, like rob07 said, it's not THAT hard. Any of the advanced regular posters here can get through it.
我完全清楚这不是园中散步。我也有觉悟很多人由于困难望而却步，但是没问题。Imron站短我，他想先大量阅读，这策略看来更稳健一些（他的阅读量突飞猛进，比我强）。另一方面，苦钻难题更适合我（金庸作品是个案例）。希望这次奋战能推动我前进。整个2010年，我一直在阅读短篇故事和漫画，现在我觉得再次挑战大部头正当其时。像rob07说的，并不特别难。诸君只要努力，必能修炼完《水浒》。
In any case, I have my copy, and it's a shame to let it sit on my shelf, so I'll be reading it. So, anyone wishing to join me? :)
无论如何，让我的那本《水浒》空自蒙尘是件丢人的事，所以我要读。愿意加入我吗？ ：）
#12 Yezze Chinese:AdvancedLocation:美国
Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:01 PM
I actually started reading this a few weeks ago, in English ofc, since I've only studied 4 years of high school Chinese (in my fourth year of class now, high school senior). I would be more than willing "read it with you guys", but I will have to read the English translation.
其实，几个星期前就我开始读了，英语译本。我只学了4年的高中汉语（我的高中第四年），所以我愿意“和你们一起读”，但我会读英文译本。
#13 Lu Chinese:fairly advancedLocation:here, for now
Posted 19 December 2010 - 03:07 PM
Oh wow, I want to join that... and renzhe is right that I probably can read it, Jin Yong is just within my reach so it's possible... but it'll take an amount of time and dedication that I don't think I'll be able to muster up for long enough. (I only managed some 100 pages of Jin Yong when I was riding the Transsiberian and had so much time to spare that there was at some point just nothing else to do, and then you don't need that much dedication.) I'm afraid I'll have to pass. But let us know if it really is not that much harder than Jin Yong, and perhaps I'll try in the future. I know the Honglou Meng is a whole lot harder, and I don't think I'll manage to read that in this lifetime.
哇哦，我想加入...renzhe说的对，我大概能行，我刚好能读金庸，所以大概能行...但太费时间和精力，我可能坚持不下去。 （我只读了100页左右金庸，还是在西伯利亚铁路跋涉的途中，有的是时间供消磨，反正也没别的事，不用耗费精力）我还是放弃吧。但是，如果真的是比金庸困难不了太多，也许未来我会试试。我知道《红楼梦》很难，我一辈子也驾驭不了。
#14 rob07 Chinese:爱好者
Posted 20 December 2010 - 08:50 AM
但太费时间和精力，我可能坚持不下去。
The book explains the history of each of the 108 heroes before they join the band on Mt. Liangshan. The length of each of these stories range from about half a page to several chapters. Each of these stories can be read and enjoyed separately, so this is a book that is very easy to read bits of without committing to the whole thing.
书中讲述108位英雄上山入伙前的历史。故事长度从大约半页到几个章节不等。每个故事都可以单独阅读，所以这书很容易，不必把握全局。
The most famous of these background stories is the story of 武松, which has its own spin-off long novel, the notorious 金瓶梅, sometimes viewed as the fifth great classical novel.
武松的故事最有名，剥离出来成了另一本长篇，臭名昭著的《金瓶梅》，可以看作第五伟大的古典小说。
There's a lot of good stuff on wikipedia for this book (see Renzhe's link), notably a complete ranking list of each of the 108 heroes, which I hadn't seen elsewhere. There's a lot of scope for discussion there. I'm not sure how definitive it is (no source is given), there are a couple of things that seem debatable.
维基上关于这本书的好东西很多（见Renzhe的链接），特别是一个完整的108英雄排行榜，其他地方我没看到。上面有很多讨论。我不知道是如何考证的（没有来源），有些地方值得商榷。
The author of 水浒传 is 施耐庵 and it is thought that this may be a pseudonym for 罗贯中 who also wrote Romance of the Three Kingdoms/三国演义. That would make for a pretty impressive CV - having written half of the four great classic novels! 罗贯中 seems to have at least edited 水浒传. Wikipedia points out that 施耐庵 may be a pun on 是乃俺 - it is still me!
《水浒传》的作者是施耐庵，这可能是罗贯中的化名，他还写了《三国演义》。相当令人印象深刻的简历——占了四大古典小说的一半！罗贯中似乎至少修订过《水浒传》。维基指出，施耐庵可能是一个双关语：是乃俺——还是俺！
#15 roddy 三俗齐全Chinese:糕急
Posted 03 January 2011 - 02:45 PM
Renzhe, whether or not you get people reading along with you, I'd absolutely love to see regular updates on your progress (or stalling).
Renzhe，你找到同伴了吗？我非常想知道是不是在执行（或拖延）计划。
#16 wushijiao Location:Hong Kong
Posted 03 January 2011 - 03:23 PM
I think I'd like to take part in this project, but I'll probably get started later in February or so.
Congrats Renzhe on this idea!
我想加入，但我可能会在二月稍晚开始。
Renzhe这个想法真好！
#17 anonymoose Chinese:比上不足，比下有余Location:上海
Posted 03 January 2011 - 04:21 PM
Not much harder than Jin Yong, eh?
Here's the second paragraph of Shui Hu Zhuan from the link that aristotle provided:
并不比金庸更难，嗯？
aristotle提供的《水浒传》链接里的第二段：
祥云迷凤阁，瑞气罩龙楼。含烟御柳拂旌旗，带露宫花迎剑戟。天香影里，玉簪朱履聚丹墀；仙乐声中，绣袄锦衣扶御驾。珍珠帘卷，黄金殿上现金轝，凤羽扇开，白玉阶前停宝辇。隐隐净鞭三下响，层层文武两班齐。
Now if anyone knows what 簪, 墀, 轝 and 辇 are without looking them up, then you've got my respect.
如果有谁认识簪，墀，轝和辇，我就服气。
#18 wushijiao Location:Hong Kong
Posted 03 January 2011 - 05:06 PM
With those crazy ancient characters in mind, when I read 三国, I was very impressed by this version and publisher: 新课标语文必读书: 三国演义，长春出版社. They also have a 水浒传, which should annotate a lot of those old characters by giving pinyin, or vocabulary-wise, giving modern Chinese equivalents...all without being too intrusive.
读《三国》，里面疯狂的古字让我对这个版本和出版社印象深刻：新课标语文必读书：三国演义，长春出版社。他们也有《水浒传》，古字都有拼音注解，成语典故，有现代汉语解释...这样就不太生僻了。
#19 Daan Chinese:HSK 8Location:Leiden
Posted 03 January 2011 - 06:56 PM
I've actually read one of the chapters of the 水滸傳 and found it quite enjoyable. I can't promise I'll read all the chapters of the book, as I simply won't have the time, but if you post updates every now and then I will hopefully be able to join you for a few chapters!
我读了一回，很愉快。我不能保证读完所有回目，根本没时间，但如果你不时发布进展，我会希望能够陪你多读几回！
#20 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 03 January 2011 - 07:34 PM
anonymoose said:
并不比金庸更难，嗯？
Hehe, I remember when imron posted some impossible Jin Yong passage, also from the very beginning of one of his novels. It completely stumped me, but most of 射雕 was relatively easy to understand once I got through the first book.
呵呵，我记得imron张贴一些难懂的金庸片段，也是从他的一本小说的开头，直接把我放挺了。但一旦我修炼完第一本，《射雕》就相对容易了。
Aristotle's link does not make it clear, but the part you quoted is a poetic description, typeset cursive in the printed version, and those are notoriously difficult to understand. Most of the prose is considerably easier (try the third paragraph). The same goes for Jin Yong. I didn't understand all poems in 射雕 either, but the prose was OK once I got used to the vocabulary.
Aristotle的链接不能说明问题，但你引用的是一段充满诗意的描写，印刷版本中，排版为手写体，出了名的难懂。大部分散文部分相当容易（看第三段）。金庸同样。《射雕》的诗歌我也不是都懂，但散文还行，都是我会用的词汇。
Welcome to the club, wushijiao and Daan! The starting time is flexible, I still have a thesis to hand in in January.
wushijiao和Daan，欢迎来到俱乐部！起始时间灵活掌握，我今年1月有一篇论文要交。
#21 Gleaves Chinese:N/ALocation:Arlington, VA - US
Posted 13 January 2011 - 07:24 AM
I'm going to throw my 笠 into the ring. I'll join.
I'm going to try and read one chapter a week. I realize a pace like that will not get me through the book this year, but with any luck, I'll be able to speed it up after a few months. I'm realistic about the difficulty level: this is above my level and much of it will go way over my head. But I think it will be fun anyway. I odered the annotated version gato suggested (thanks, looks great), so I think that will help, and I will likely consult a translation from time to time as well. I had the urge to tackle something a little more academic this year, so I think this project will scratch that itch nicely. Once things more or less officially kick-off here, I'll start my tortoise pace. Thanks to renzhe for the proposal and initiative.
我要上擂。我要参加。
我准备一个星期读一回。我知道这样一年也读不完，但运气好的话，几个月后就能加快速度。我很清楚其难度：远在我的水平之上。管他呢，这才有趣。我订购了gato建议的（感谢，看起来很棒）注释本，我认为会有助理解，我可能会不时寻求翻译。我希望今年能更学术一点，这个项目会很管用斯达舒。一旦正式开锣，我就迈开龟步。感谢renzhe的建议和倡议。
#22 gato Posted 13 January 2011 - 01:10 PM*
POPULAR
I browsed around the bookstore and ended up buying the annotated edition of 水浒传 published by 中国戏剧出版社. A few sample pages are attached below to show the level of annotation it has.
我逛遍了周围的书店最后买了中国戏剧出版社的《水浒传》注解版。下面几个简单的网页能说明其注解水平。
Publisher: 中国戏剧出版社
- Description on cover: "轻松读名著，释意加评注，注音加解词"
- Date: October 1, 2008
- Hardback, 786 pages
- 1 Volume
I also looked at the versions published by 长春出版社 （mentioned above by Wushijiao) and 中国少年儿童出版社 (mentioned above by Glenn and myself).
我也留意了Wushijiao提到的长春出版社版和Glenn和我自己提到的中国少年儿童出版社版
I went with 戏剧版 because it has an unabridged version of the text (unlike 长春版), and its annotations are just as good if not better than the others.
我采用戏剧版，因为它没有删节（不像长春版），其注释比别家更好，至少一样好。
Here is a summary comparison of the three versions:
- Annotation Level: The level of vocabulary annotation for the three are about the same and more detailed than most other editions on the market. Some words that are annotated in the 戏剧出版社 version is not annotated in the others, and vice versa, but overall the annotation level is about the same. The 戏剧版 and 长春版 seem to have more pinyin annotation than the 少年儿童版 - a bit surprising since the latter is specifically target towards younger readers.
- Annotation Layout: 戏剧版 and 长春版 annotations are embedded within the text, in parentheses right next to the words being explained (see sample pages attached); 少年儿童版 annotations are on the left or right margin of each page.
- Unabridged Text: Both 戏剧出版社 and 少年儿童版 seem to have the full version of the text. 长春版 appears to be abridged, though this is not clearly stated anywhere in the book. I compared a chapter from each edition against the 人民出版社 canonical edition and found that 长春版 was missing some poems and some sentences were re-written in a more colloquial form.
- Size and Binding: The 戏剧版 and 长春版 are 1-volume hardbacks; 少年儿童版 is a 4-volume softback.
- Drawings: 少年儿童版 have some nice color drawings to accompany the text; 戏剧版 and 长春版 are text-only.
- Paper Quality: The paper used for 戏剧版 is thinner compared to 长春版 and 少年儿童版, and therefore might be more susceptible to damage.
下面是三个版本的比较：
- 注解水平：词汇注释三个水平都差不多，比市场上的大多数其他版本更详细。戏剧版的有些注解别家没有，反之亦然，但整体的注解水平是差不多的。似乎戏剧版和长春版比少年儿童版拼音注解更多——有点出人意料，因为后者专门针对年轻读者。
- 注解布局：戏剧版和长春版的注释嵌入被解释文字旁边括号内，（见所附的示例页面）;少年儿童版的注释在每一页的左边或右边空白处。
- 未删节的文字：戏剧版和少年儿童版看来是完整版。长春版有删节，却没有明确表现出来。我对照人民出版社规范版，比较每个版本的同一回目，发现长春版缺少了一些诗和一些句子，以更通俗的形式重新编写。
- 尺寸和装订：戏剧版和长春版是1卷精装本；少年儿童版是4卷平装本。
- 插图：少年儿童版文本间有一些精美的彩色插图;戏剧版和长春版是纯文本。
- 纸张质量：戏剧版纸张相比长春版和少年儿童版较薄，可能更容易破损。
#23 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 26 January 2011 - 04:34 AM
I have not forgotten this.
I discovered that my reading skill has dropped off more than I thought after a year of basic neglect, so I'm reading through 杜拉拉 at the moment, to get some practice in.
This is still planned for early February, and anyone willing to start sooner should do so. It's not as if you'll finish it in a month :)
我没忘了这里。
我发现，荒废一年，我的阅读能力下降的比我预想的还要严重，还是先读《杜拉拉》吧，恢复几成功力。
计划依旧，2月初，愿意同行的诸君都尽快开始准备吧。一个月内读不完：）
#24 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 21 March 2011 - 07:55 PM
Sorry for the delay -- I'm moving countries and taking care of everything, so I've been quite busy.
I've started on this, so the project is officially underway! I've read the first chapter (our of 120) so far, and intend to keep going until I'm finished, probably some time next year.
很抱歉拖延了——我近来到处跑，一直挺忙。
正式开始！我读完了第一回（120回版），并打算继续。全书读完大约得到明年某个时候。
A word about difficulty: there are two different types of text one needs to read. The narrative is told as relatively standard, old-fashioned prose, which is peppered with poems and poetic descriptions conveying the majestic of beautiful nature of scenes, places and animals: a lavish hall, a majestic mountain, a vicious tiger. The prose is written in 白话 and is relatively straight-forward to get through, if you consult a good dictionary. Honestly, this is easier than I expected, though the frequency of archaic and rare words is quite high. The poetic parts are in what appears to be Classical Chinese, typeset italic and so far they do not carry important information, only add to the style.
关于困难：有两个不同类型的文字，要读通。叙事是比较标准的浅近白话，另外就是诗和诗意的描述雄伟美丽的自然风光、地点和动物：豪华的大厅，雄伟的山，凶恶的老虎。叙述用白话，有本好字典比较好办。老实说，异体字和生僻字出现的频率比我的预期高。诗意的部分，用古典汉语，斜体排版，到目前为止，他们承载重要的信息，只是锦上添花。
While I could just skip the classical parts and get on with it, it seems like it would be cheating, and I couldn't really claim to have read 水浒转. So my current strategy is to understand the prose 100% and to try to get the main idea behind the poetic parts without aiming for understanding each sentence and each characters. So far, it has worked fine, actually, considering how difficult some of this stuff is (for native speakers too, I hear), so I intend to continue like this.
虽然干脆跳过古典的部分也没问题，但这就好像作弊，我不能就这样大言不惭的声称已经读了《水浒》。所以，我目前的策略是100％理解散文，试着理解诗意部分的主旨，不求甚解。到目前为止，这法子可行，实际上，考虑到这东西有多难（母语人士也觉得难，我听说），我打算继续这样干。
#25 gato Posted 21 March 2011 - 08:20 PM
Ok. Maybe I should get started, too. ;)
好，我也该开始了
#26 Gleaves Chinese:N/ALocation:Arlington, VA - US
Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:36 AM
Good work kicking this off, renzhe.
I just read through Chapter 1. The poetic/classical parts are definitely rough going for me. I am going to read through them, but I am not going to expend much energy deciphering them (unless they become more important). The regular prose is tough, but I can more or less follow along. I'm aiming to tackle this one slow and steady, probably a chapter a week.
I'm reading the 少年儿童版 mentioned above. I like the presentation and it does a pretty good job of providing notes. It was a relief to have something like 嘉祐三年 (which appears in the first sentence and means 公元1058) explained right in the margin. Some of the footnotes are less helpful. For instance, ”你不要说谎？“ is footnoted. The footnote explains that the sentence means ”你不是在说谎吧？" That seems somewhat unnecessary given the tons of other difficult stuff going on around it, but maybe my Chinese is not good enough to know why I needed that explained to me.
这办法强，renzhe
我刚读了第1回。诗意/古典部分对我来说是绝对稀里糊涂。我还是要读它们，但我不打算花费太多的精力去搞破译（除非非常重要）。正式文体很难，但我多少还能跟上。我的目标是，缓慢而稳妥的克服它，大概一个星期一回。
我读的是上面提到的少年儿童版。我喜欢插图，起到了很好的提示作用。比如“嘉佑三年”（出现在第一个句子，公元1058年）在右边有解释。脚注一些不太有用的。例如，“你不要说谎？”脚注解释的意思是“你不是在说谎吧？”这似乎有些不必要，因为它周围是山一样多的其他困难，但也许是我的中文不够好，还不知道为什么需要向我解释。
#27 Daan Chinese:HSK 8Location:Leiden
Posted 22 March 2011 - 03:43 PM
Good job, renzhe! The first chapter's only 20 pages in my Sanmin edition, and I have this week off...so why don't I join you? 20 pages in 7 days is just under 3 pages a day. Should be doable, right?
好，renzhe！第一回20页，我这一周休息...所以，我为什么不加入？ 20页，7天，每天只是3页。应该可行，对不对？
#28 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:03 PM
This is just to let you know that I'm back and reading again (half-way through the second chapter still).
The 3000-km move put a slight damper on things, but now that I'm slowly settling down, I'm back to reading.
报告诸君，我回来了，再次阅读（第二回的中间）。
3000公里马不停蹄的奔波结束了，可以安定下来，回来阅读。
#29 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 26 April 2011 - 06:29 PM
...and I'm still here :) Reading through the fourth chapter. The slow speed is caused by too many things to do, but I try to finish a page or two every night.
I hope somebody out there is reading it still. I'm really enjoying the experience, though it's too early to judge the story, and my language level obviously doesn't allow me to pass judgment on the literary value.
I have to use the dictionary a lot, but I find that most of the difficulty is in the new vocabulary, and less common meanings of common characters. I have to look up a word often, sometimes once for each line, and it reminds me of my beginnings with Jin Yong. It's also quite inspiring to see the richness of the language by doing this. It's a different way to read than what I was doing recently, and I'm enjoying it, though it is definitely work.
Let's hear it. Who's been slacking?
我还在：）第四回了。太多的事情拖慢了速度，但每天晚上我都尽量读一两页。
我希望，诸君还在坚持。我真的很享受这种体验，尽管评价故事还为时过早，和我的语言水平显然不能让我进行文学价值的判断。
我必须经常用字典，但我觉得，最大的难题是新词和常见词的不常用意义。有时候我看每行字都要反复读，让我想起我开始看金庸的时候。这样做对理解语言的丰富性很有启发。这和我最近的阅读方式有点不同，是享受，也是个力气活。
说说吧。谁懈怠了？
#30 Gleaves Chinese:N/ALocation:Arlington, VA - US
Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:55 PM
Totally guilty on slacking. I'm still in the middle of Chapter 2. I made the somewhat odd choice of starting to read this and Jin Yong (雪山飞狐) at the same time. It was just too much 武侠 for me to handle, so I have 水浒传 on hold for a few weeks.
我有罪，完全彻底懈怠了。我焊在第二回了。我做了个诡异的选择，在同一时间开始阅读这书和金庸（雪山飞狐）。武侠太多，消化不能了，所以我把《水浒传》停了几个星期。
#31 gato
Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:26 PM
I haven't started 水浒 yet. I've been reading 张永发's 《中国共产革命七十年》 lately. A pretty good read.
我还没开始读《水浒》，在读张永发的《中国共产革命七十年》。非常不错。
在史料的叢林中
──讀陳永發新著《中國共產革命七十年》
⊙ 高 華
#32 anonymoose Chinese:比上不足，比下有余Location:上海
Posted 27 April 2011 - 12:05 AM
I don't know where you guys all find the time...
你们哪来的时间啊。。。
#33 Daan Chinese:HSK 8Location:Leiden
Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:15 AM
Guilty as charged...I've only read one chapter so far. I've been very busy writing a paper on Classical Chinese syntax, but I'm almost done, and when I'm done I'll have three months off in which I can read Chinese books to my heart's content. So I'll be catching up with you then, I hope
我也有罪 ...到目前为止我只读过一回。我一直在忙着写中国古典语法论文，快完了，完事能休息三个月，可以阅读想看的中文书籍。希望能赶上你。
#34 jbradfor Chinese:IntermediateLocation:MN, USA
Posted 27 April 2011 - 04:12 AM
I'm at exactly 100% of my target! ;)
我的目标是全看完！
#35 rob07 Chinese:爱好者
Posted 27 April 2011 - 12:43 PM
第四回了...尽管评价故事还为时过早
I think the 鲁达/鲁智深 story arc starts in Chapter 3, so I suppose 史进 has dropped into the background and you are following 鲁智深. 史进 and 鲁智深 are the first of the 108 heroes to be introduced and I would say that their stories are very typical of the book as a whole. The focus will stay on 鲁智深 for a couple of chapters and then switch to someone else. All of the 108 heroes get some sort of introduction and backstory, although most get much less screen time than 鲁智深 (史进 is less important than him but more important than most of the others). So by the time the focus shifts off 鲁智深 in a few chapters you should have a pretty good idea of how much you are going to like the book. In fact, the pattern for most of the book is already set when the focus shifts from 史进 to 鲁智深.
Partially inspired by this thread to read something long again, I started 笑傲江湖 earlier this month.
我认为鲁达/鲁智深故事从三回开始，所以我想史进已成为背景，鲁智深成为主线。史进和鲁智深是108个英雄中最先出场的，我猜，他们的故事是全书的一个典型。重点是鲁智深的几个回目，然后切换到其他人。所有的108个英雄都有某种形式的介绍和背景故事，虽然大多数戏份比鲁智深少的多（史进比他次要一点，但是比书中多数人重要）。看到鲁智深为主角的几回，究竟喜欢不喜欢这本书，你应该有数了。事实上，从史进到鲁智深，本书格局已经定下来了。
受此启发，我又想读长篇了，本月初开读《笑傲江湖》
#36 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 27 April 2011 - 06:18 PM
Thanks Rob. I'm enjoying the story so far. It seems like the characters are pretty nicely fleshed out even if it looks like a bunch of talking and a bunch of fighting at the first glance. So far, it seems like it's not a story of moral, good rebels against the evil government, but a story of complicated characters with weaknesses and moral problems. 鲁达 is a good example of that.
感谢Rob。我爱上这个故事了。人物活灵活现呼之欲出，即使乍看只是大篇的对话和打斗。到目前为止，好像这书不是讲高尚的好贼人反抗罪恶的朝廷，而是有弱点和道德困惑的一帮汉子的故事。鲁达是个很好的例子。
#37 rob07 Chinese:爱好者
Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:03 PM
There's an upmarket Chinese restaurant/bar near where I work that has wallpapered some of its walls with pages from a book of Chinese literary criticism. I was sitting next to some pages from an essay on 水浒传 yesterday. It was having a go at the 梁山好汉 for not basing seniority on merit and being misogynistic. Good stuff.
我单位附近有一家高档中餐馆/酒吧，墙纸上贴着一些中国文学批评的书页。我昨天就坐在有关《水浒传》的论文旁边。分析不爱钱钞官位，视女子为无物的梁山好汉很到位。好东西。
#38 renzhe First Episodes CaptainChinese:ReasonableLocation:Algarve
Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:59 PM
Another short update:
About 50 pages in, so roughly 5% :) Snail's pace, due to lack of time, but I'm making slow progress.
I think that it's slowly becoming easier to read, but I might be just fooling myself. I still need my trusty New Century jumbo dictionary all the time.
简单汇报一下：
约50页，约5％，蜗牛一般，没时间啊，进展缓慢。
我觉得越来越好读了，也可能是我自作聪明。我还是离不开那值得信赖的新世纪巨型字典。
#39 Gleaves Chinese:N/ALocation:Arlington, VA - US
Posted 21 June 2011 - 10:49 AM
I picked this back up a week or two ago. I am up to chapter 4. At times, I can pretty closely follow what is going, other times I am a bit mystified. As long as I am getting the major plot points, I'm content.
I found brief chapter summaries here, but it only goes to chapter 60. Does anyone know of a more complete list of chapter by chapter recaps? I know I am going to lose track of things after a bunch of chapters, so I'd like to have quick summaries to reference.
一两个星期前我继续开读。第四回了。有时候，我基本可以紧跟线索，其他时间我就晕。只要能看懂主要情节，我就知足了。
我发现有简短的章节摘要，但只到第60回。有没有全套的？我知道再过几回我就乱套了，所以我需要摘要做参考。
看到这些可爱老外们如此百折不饶的执着攻读《水浒》，俺真心的表示万分的惭愧…… {:soso_e110:}四大名著，我都没读过……
噢，《西游记》在小学四五年级时囫囵吞枣读过一下……
惭愧惭愧……{:soso_e117:} 古代读书识字的人很少，大多数那时的国人都没有读过四大名著，但并不妨碍这些故事已经深入人心。
因为古典小说真正在民间的广泛传播不是靠书本，而靠的是曲艺（如评书）和戏曲这类通俗文艺。 呵呵，值得敬佩的老外们，对于水浒，我除了中学课本里讲的那几回以外，看的基本都是小人书版的;P 对这四大名著，是个中国人就能做到，即使不读原著也能知晓人物以及故事梗概 “分析不爱钱钞、官位，视女子为无物的梁山好汉很到位”老外给出了好汉的定义。敬佩敬佩，惭愧惭愧。 里面那个施耐庵和罗贯中之间基情的猜测雷到了我... 这个挑战不小啊 老外为啥觉得金庸容易读呀？化骨绵掌、拈花指……译成E文是啥东东了？ 顶楼主{:soso_e179:} 乃俺---还是俺，这个太神了 四毛九 发表于 2011-12-30 09:12 static/image/common/back.gif
老外为啥觉得金庸容易读呀？化骨绵掌、拈花指……译成E文是啥东东了？
估计他们是捧着字典直接看的中文原版 按口气，这群老外竟然死啃《水浒》原著，而放弃译本，敬佩敬佩 沼泽暴徒？ 笑死 哥的读书历程：
小学一二年级：西游记
五六年级：三国
初中：水浒+西游（返璞归真）
高中：金庸（全套都读了）
现在居然最喜欢 红楼梦
老外可以看看中国名家对诸多名著的点评 四大名著我全看了。都是反儒的。
小许有法 发表于 2011-12-30 11:02 static/image/common/back.gif
四大名著我全看了。都是反儒的。
谈中国文化，离得开儒释道吗Q5) 老外看水浒，真是难为他了{:soso_e100:}