【译文-中文】丝绸之路
【原文-英国】The Silk Road【原文地址】：http://www.historum.com/asian-history/20472-silk-road.html
【发布日期】：2011-02-07
【翻译截止日期】：2011-02-16 19:10:01
【翻译评论数/总评论】：30 / 30
【翻译作者】：寒灯
【联名作者】：
译文导读：来看看英国人对中国历史的了解
这一次是比较轻松的但有很学究味儿的讨论，中国很少见的没中枪
超链接在发上来的时候被削掉了，不过我基本上都补在了翻译里
lz首发在2月7日，最后一条评论发在14日
所学有限，有些地方不太清楚，还请各位提出修改和补充意见 另外可能格式有些混乱，请大家海涵
Richard Stanbery
Historian
Besides the obvious silk, what other trade goods travelled across the silk road? Was there any things
such as sugar that were traded in very early times but kind of dried up after the collapse of Western
Rome?
And I have another question...is there any evidence, or reports, or even rumour that certain plants or
animals such as silkworms or sugar cane were attempted to be brought from thier native lands to be
transplanted somewhere else for commercial uses by some other group or society?
除了丝绸，在丝绸之路上还有没有其他的商品交易？有没有一些在早期被交易的比如说糖这样的货物，在西方的罗马衰败之后就逐渐停止贸易的呢？而且我还有个问题：有没有什么证据，或者报道，或者任何传说提到过有什么人或是团体，曾为了商业用途试着把一些动植物——比如说蚕或是甘蔗——带到其他地域进行培养呢？
TOP↑
评论翻译
leakbrewergator
Tiger of Kai
Instead of listing one by one myself, Answers.com had a nice listing:
Silk
Porcelain
Tea
Wine
Weapons
Metal work
Jewelry
Horses
Woven goods
Spices
Cloth
Glass
Crystals
Wood
Gold
Silver
Amber
Brassware
Jade
Nuts
Oil
Fruit
Peacock feathers
Sugar
Horses
Camels
Mirrors
Cotton
Kashmir
Buddhist manuscripts
Sculptures
Hemp
Chilies
Salt
Mint
Almonds
Lapis lazuli
Saffron
Dates
Textiles
Lapdogs
Ivory
Dyes
Furs
Incense
Answer.com 网站上已经有一个很好的单子，我就不自己给你弄了
1 丝绸
2 瓷器
3 茶叶
4 酒
5 武器
6 金属制品
7 珠宝
8 马匹
9 丝织物
10 香料
11 布匹
12 玻璃
13 水晶
14 木材
15 黄金
16 白银
17 琥珀
18 黄铜
19 翡翠
20 坚果
21 油
22 水果
23 孔雀羽毛
24 糖
25 马（不知怎么又出现了一次）
26 骆驼
27 镜子
28 棉花
29 克什米尔披肩
30 佛经
31 雕塑
32 大麻
33 辣椒
34 盐
35 薄荷
36 杏仁
37 天青石
38 藏红花
39 历法
40 纺织品
41 宠物狗
42 象牙
42 染料
44 皮草
45 香
Parmenio
Archivist
（引用了一遍ls的列表）
to add, diffusion of thought, particularly religious. (you mentioned Buddhist manuscripts, but you
neglected to mention Islam the other direction.)
...well, answers.com neglected to mention it, not you.
还要加上传播了思想，尤其是宗教。（你提到了佛经，可你却没提到伊斯兰教这些其他宗教的东西。。。。好吧好吧，这是Answer网的疏忽，不是你的。）
leakbrewergator
Tiger of Kai
（这是sf君，还是引用楼上）
Very true. I assumed Richard was only interested in trading goods.
你说的对，不过我是一开始认为lz或许就想看看贸易的那些货物。。。
Parmenio
Archivist
You're probably right, but I feel that point is often under-emphasized.
你可能是对的，可是我觉得这一点一般都是要重点强调的。
Richard Stanbery
Historian
（lz现身）
Thanks Lake. That is what I was looking for, at least as far as the list goes. It was sugar that I was
thinking of. I read yestdy that sugar didnt enter Europe until the middle ages. But I was not convinced
of that. I was more inclined to think that it may have re-entered during the middle ages.
What was it was called? Sweet salt?
And, I was browsing over an archeo dig done by UNESCO or some organization on seeds and pollens in
Carthage harbor. And they found stuff like Mulberry seeds and opium poppy seeds, and so I natually
wondered about this. I was wondering if there was an attempt to get silkworms to Africa along the Silk
Road.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that the Silk road must have been a source of
constant watchfulness to the Eastern kings, as they had to be ever watchful for things like this, thier
trade secrets and sensitive plants and animals being smuggled out of thier lands across the silk road.
There must have been some proprietary secrets very jealously guarded.
Can you think of any item that was successfully smuggled out of Asia along the silk road and introduced
elsewhere?
谢谢回复。就这东西我找了很久，直到我看到了这张单子。我读了yestdy(不知道这是什么），那上面说一直到中世纪才有糖流入欧洲。可我不太相信这种说法。我更倾向于认为中世纪那次是第二次流入。
它当时被叫做什么呢？甜盐？
另外，我看了一份来自联合国教科文组织，或是什么花粉种子研究组织的在迦太基湾的研究，他们发现了一些疑似桑树和罂粟种子的东西，我很自然的对此感到好奇。我想知道到底有没有过什么人曾试着通过丝路，把桑树移植到非洲地区。
其实我真正所想的是，我认为丝路的存在，肯定不断刺激人们保持对东方国家的警惕。这是因为他们的贸易机密以及珍贵的动植物被私运出国境并流入丝路，因而他们必须保持警惕。他们肯定小心翼翼的看管着一些转有机密。
你能列举出一些从亚洲流出的东西的条目，并且介绍一下吗？
leakbrewergator
Tiger of Kai
（回ls)
AFAIK, leaders of the East weren't particularly jealous of their secrets being released to the rest of
the world. The trade was a 2 way street, as Parmenio pointed out. Trade was promoted throughout the
diaspora along the Silk Road.
(Sorry for the blandness of my post. I'm trying REALLY hard to remember some of my lectures from a
class I took on this subject about 6 years ago.)
据我所知，东方的君主们可不怎么在意他们的机密被传播到世界的其他地方。就如帕纽曼所指出的，丝路贸易其实有两条线路。在整条丝路上都存在犹太人，而他们促进了丝路上的贸易。
（请原谅我有一点语焉不详。我真的很难记清自己6年前为这个课题所作的演讲啊！）
Knarly Dan
Lecturer
In the 5th century AD 'the Roman emperor Justinian sent two Nestorian monks as Christian missionaries
to China with orders to smuggle out silkworm eggs and the seeds of the mulberry tree in hollowed out
walking canes. They succeeded, and so by 554BC the mystery of sericulture arrived in Constantinople and
the practice of sericulture spread throughout Byzantium and also through the Arab world.'
Thanks for reminding me that I haven't read anything about the Silk Road for way too long. Tomorrow
I'll go to the library and see what's available.
罗马皇帝查士丁尼在公元5世纪曾将2名僧侣以基督教传教士的身份派往中国，而他们的另一个目的是将蚕和桑树种子装在中空的手杖中偷运出中国。他们成功了，并且在公元前554年，君士坦丁堡的人们已经了解了养蚕业的奥秘，而养蚕的传统也传播到了拜占庭乃至整个阿拉伯世界。
多亏了你提醒我，我才想起我都这么久没读任何关于丝路的东西了。明儿我就去图书馆，看看有没有什么有用的东西。
Richard Stanbery
Historian
I found some interesting reading here of this stuff. silkworms being smuggled out in hollow canes, or
in the hairpiece of a princess...
History of Silk（此乃超链接：http://www.silk-road.com/artl/silkhistory.shtml）
I bet the ancient traders and merchants shared many a story like this around a campfire as the evening
sun drew down and the draft animals settled down for a nights rest.
It must have been a culture all to its own. And it may be that it wasnt only the books and manuscripts
being carried that took diffusion of culture along the silk road, but the traders themselves. I bet
they were like "Carnys", carnival people of today that travel the roads every day. The road is their
home, and every body knows everybody.
I bet it was very cosmopolitan, life in a caravan. Perhaps Hindu and Muslim and Christian and Jew all
sat together around the fire and ate and drank and talked in a way that was seldom possible in thier
homelands?
这些说法真有意思，蚕是被装在中空的手杖中偷运出去的，又或者被装在公主的假发中偷运出去。。。
看看这个http://www.silk-road.com/artl/silkhistory.shtml
我打赌古代的商人们在夕阳西下的时候，围坐在营地的篝火旁肯定聊了好多这样的故事，并且在晚上休息的时候画下了这些动物的草图。
丝路自身就是一种文化。或许通过丝绸之路传播了文化的不仅仅是书籍及经书，那些运送它们的商人也是如此。我相信当时的情景就像一场嘉年华会，参加狂欢的人们每天都在进行着旅行。丝绸之路就是他们的家，每个人都彼此了解。
我敢打赌，跟随商队的生活一定是四海为家的。或许当时，印度人、穆斯林和基督教徒还有犹太人都能围坐在炉火边，吃吃喝喝，用他们在家乡都很少能用上的方式聊着天呢？
leakbrewergator
Tiger of Kai
FWIW, this is an extremely informative site :
The Silk Road Project - Silk Road Maps
This one too:
http://virtuallabs.stanford.edu/silkroad/SilkRoad.html
这个地方值得去看看：
http://www.silkroadproject.org/tabid/177/defaul.aspx
还有：http://virtuallabs.stanford.edu/silkroad/SilkRoad.html
Richard Stanbery
Historian
Now that was really neat, Lake. One could actually hear the musical instruments of the silk road being
played. I especially liked the Mongolian horse-fiddle (never heard tell of one before). And I can see
how the development of musical instruments n the west was influenced by eastern instruments.
I bet all of Ireland shook when the sound of the Mongolian fiddle hit Ireland. And my Scots-Irish
ancestors must have bounced 10 feet high! We can hear the descendants of it playing night and day in
the Appalachian mountains of today!
And after getting a clue here, I have concluded that this...
现在可真方便，人们可以真真正正的听到那些曾在丝路上演奏的音乐。我尤爱蒙古马头琴（我以前从未听说过它）。我现在也对西方乐器在东方乐器的影响下的是如何发展的有了一些了解。我相信，如果蒙古马头琴的声音能在爱尔兰响起，整个爱尔兰都会轰动。而我那苏格兰-爱尔兰祖先肯定激动得一蹦三尺高啊。。。
我进行了一些收集，现在把它们放出来
（下面是几个链接）
(YouTube-mongolian music)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdbwE54r2nc&feature=related
sounds kind of like a musical ancestor of this (instruments, that is)...听起来就像是这种乐器的祖先啊
(YouTube - Medieval music - Troubadour love song by Arany Zolt??n )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk1W22yHLJQ&feature=related
And throw in the African banjo and this thing this feller is playing here...（和非洲五弦琴搭配？）
（YouTube - mongolian music (boy playing dombra)） （冬不拉？）
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCoIeZoIs5o&feature=related
I just gotta conclude that there was perhaps a lot more Eastern influence on Europe than we may realize
today. I wonder if Ghengis Khan knew that he was helping to invent bluegrass music? And Spanish guitar
too, by the sound of that last thing.
Seriously though, I can see where the silk road might have been one of the biggest engines of cultural
diffusion in the ancient times. Perhaps even more than warfare of ships?
This is shaping up to be an interesting thread.
我只想说，或许欧洲收到东方的影响比我们想想的多得多。我挺想知道，成吉思汗知不知道他促进了蓝草音乐的诞生？而根据最后一样东西的声音，西班牙吉他也是如此。
如果认真的想想，丝绸之路或许是古代最大的文化交流的火车头之一。又或许，甚至比那次舰队间的战斗（的影响）还要大？
这倒是个有趣的思路。
02-08-2011, 12:34 PM #12 (permalink)
leakbrewergator
Tiger of Kai
I could argue that it was the most important feature for cultural diffusion throughout Asia (and then
some.) We're talking an area from Japan and SE Asia (through the maritime portion of the Silk Road) all
the way to Central Europe.
Thanks for creating this thread. You've motivated me to dust off my old notes on the subject! I wrote a
paper a while back that I forgot all about!
Also, here's another great link for studying the Silk Road. One of the men that put it together was a
professor of mine.
Silk Road Links（此乃超链接）
（回楼上）
我可以说丝路或许是贯穿全亚洲（而且还远不止此）最最重要的活动。我们所讨论的范围是从日本、东南亚（通过海上丝绸之路）一路上直到中部欧洲。
感谢你提供了这个新思路。你激励了我，是我能彻底抛开关于这件事的旧的笔记。不久之前我把它写在一张纸上，可是我现在全忘了！（笑~）
还有，这儿还有一个很牛的关于丝路研究的链接。其中一个把它整合的人是我的导师。（自豪笑）
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Asia201/links201.htm
Lord_of_Gauda
Historian
In terms of volume, one of the biggest commodities of the 'silk road' was textiles and dyes.
The Indians were the only growers of cotton in old world in antiquity and as such, there was great
demand for cotton fabric throughout the ancient world, since wool/leather were not comfortable clothing
during the summer months.
The Indians were also the pioneers in dyes, making an entire industry out if, using closely guarded
secret mixtures of flowers & plant dyes and as such, dyes formed a big part of the trade as well.
Opium & opiates though, far predates any civilization, with opium usage & poppies credited independetly
to neolithic Egypt, Mesopotamia, France, India and China.
As for the 'traders'- the bulk of silk route trade was carried out by Indians and Iranians.
The Indians (along with a smattering of Greeks, Egyptians and Romans) dominated the sea route across
the Arabian sea and they almost exclusively dominated the trade through Bay of Bengal, with the
Malay/Indonesian/Thai intermediaries taking over the South-China sea leg of the trade.
Overland, the trade was dominated by Iranian peoples, particularly, the Indo-Iranian branch called the
Soghdians, who pretty much were hugely dominant of trade through China, Afghanistan and most of the
middle east to the ancient port cities of Phoenicia.
Infact, the Soghdians, who are one of the poorly understood people in history, have played a huge role
culturally, politically and in trade, including the development of Turkic cultural identities, language
and cultures.
The reason Turkic culture mirrors Iranian culture to a large degree is because of their Soghdian roots
(The other major contributor to Turkic genesis were the ancestors of the Mongols, who's influence is
visible in the linguistic nature of central Asian turks).
按体积算，丝路上最大宗的商品莫过于纺织品和染料了。
在古代，印度人是诸如棉花之类物品的仅有的生产者，而古时候棉纺织品有很高的需求量——自从皮毛开始不适合作为夏装的时候。
印度人还是染料的先驱，他们创造了一整套工艺，用一些被严密看守的花草混合物之类的东西制造染料——这也在贸易里占很大一部分比重。
而鸦片/麻醉剂，尽管它（的使用）早于任何文明，其用法或是罂粟的栽种也被证明在新石器时代的埃及、美索不达米亚、法兰西、印度和中国等地独立起源。
至于“商人”——丝路上大量的贸易是由印度人和伊朗人承担的。
印度人（与少数希腊人，埃及人和罗马人一起）统治着海上丝路的阿拉伯海部分，而他们独立的统治着孟加拉湾的贸易，马来西亚，印度尼西亚和泰国则掌管和南中国海上的贸易。
在陆地上，伊朗人统治着贸易。尤其是印度-伊朗裔——也就是所谓的Soghdians——他们接管着大宗的从中国、阿富汗和大多数中东国家到古代腓尼基港口城市的贸易。
实际上，the Soghdians是一个在历史上很少被理解和关注的民族，他们曾在文化、政治、贸易上扮演过重要角色，而其中包括了发展出了作为突厥民族的文化认同，语言及其文化。而在很大程度上，突厥民族的文化与伊朗文化的酷似，也是由于他们的Soghdian民族根性使然。（突厥民族基因的主要贡献者真是蒙古人的先祖，后者在语言上很明显的影响到了中亚的土耳其人。）
DreamWeaver
Historian
Dyes, very expensive, especially when they produced colours and shades different or better thanwhat
could be found in Europe
Also bearing in mind the difference between what was expensive and highly sought after that could turn
a large profit, but which might actually account for very little of the actual volume of goods moved.
染料啊，那可是很贵的，尤其是当他们生产出欧洲没有，或是比欧洲更好的染料的时候。
而且考虑到什么货物最贵，什么货物最受青睐或许能带来高额利润，但实际上它们或许在货物中所占的体积很小很小。
Publius Aelius Hadrianus
Archivist
（回楼上）
The most prized dye in for the ancient romans was found in Tyre. --- Just as curiosity
Not answering to the thread itself.
古罗马最贵的染料实在橡胶里被发现的——就像古董一样。
不过这个lz的思路本身无关。
DreamWeaver
Historian
In the medieval a considerable number of dyes from India and central Asia were highly popular, in part
due to the overfisshing od various sea creatures who produced the dye naturally in the Mediterranean.
很多来自印度及中亚的染料曾一度在中世纪非常流行，这一部分归因于当时发生在地中海的过度捕捞问题——其所捕捞的海洋生物正是染料生产的原材料。
leakbrewergator
Tiger of Kai
On a similar yet side note, dyes from this region were highly sought after in Japan as well. The
vividly bright colors were a nice way to flaunt one's status.【laugh】
在类似的记录中，这个地区生产的染料后来也同样被日本人所青睐。这种鲜亮的颜色可是一种炫耀个人地位的好方法。（笑~)
Richard Stanbery
Historian
Did cotton, and spinning, begin in India?
The spinning wheel? Was that another item technologique that diffused along the silk road?
棉花还有纺织真的是发源于印度么？
还有纺车呢？还有其他的哪样工艺曾通过丝路传播么？
leakbrewergator
Tiger of Kai
Well, it has been argued that the spinning wheel was in use during the late eleventh century in Iran.
From there it made it's way to India and China in the early thirteenth century. Eventually it is found
in Europe in the later thirteenth/early fourteenth century.
That seems to point to the fact that is was a new technology that was introduced to certain regions
along the route.
有种观点认为纺车实在11世纪晚期首次被应用于伊朗。在13世纪早期，从伊朗，纺车的制作工艺和使用方法被传到了印度和中国。最后在13世纪末14世初的时候在欧洲出现。
通过丝路，新的科技被传播到某个地区，这应该是事实。
Qymaen
Historian
Cool website, Leak!
网站不错，leak！
Richard Stanbery
Historian
And it is interesting to think that the items that passed on the route may have been years old by the
time they reached the end consumer. Perhaps the silk road itself spurred the advent of new technologies
to aid in the preservation of the goods as they passed over high mountains, rugged deserts, rain, snow,
etc.
Waterproofing materiels comes to mind.
And just imagine, the toga that Julius Ceasar died in may well have been made in India or China?
我想到了一个有趣的事：丝路上的货物要往往要花上好多年才能被运到目的地。那么，或许在丝绸之路本身就催生了一些发明，以便能在途中翻越高山，崎岖的荒原，遇到雨雪的时候更好的保存货物。
脑海里突然出现了防水材料。
还有，仅仅想像啊，尤利乌斯·恺撒死时穿的袍子，是印度生产还是中国制造？
Knarly Dan
Lecturer
Something else to be considered is the how the Mongols in particular wrung every bit of speed possible
in sending messages on those sections of the Silk Road they controlled. The distances hard-riding
couriers could cover in X amount of time were amazing. I don't think any European nation was able to
match it, but some improvements in the West probably were implemented based on what traders and
travelers reported seeing.
除了这个，我觉得同样要考虑的是蒙古人在他们所控制的区域是如何使送信的速度最大化的。送信的人在x时间内要跑完的路程之长简直令人惊异。我不认为任何欧洲国家能在这上和他们一较高下，不过西方的在这上一些改进可能正来源于商人和旅行者对此的目击和记述。
Lord_of_Gauda
Historian
Yep, Baghdad to Ulanbator could be done in something like an astonishing 3 weeks! (although, don't
quote me on that, it could be a little longer.)
是的，巴格达到乌兰巴托这么长的路程居然可以在3周内跑完，这太令人惊异了！（而且，可别说是我所的啊，我觉得这路程可能还能更长些。）
Knarly Dan
Lecturer
The wear and tear on those couriers must have been nearly as bad as with the horses. I wonder if they
could do much more than hobble around after retirement.
I did a little checking, and based on the first few hits, it looks like Pony Express riders were
clocking about 250 miles per day (1), which is close to what Marco Polo estimated Mongol couriers were
covering.
对送信的人来说，他们在途中的消耗几乎和所用的马一样大。我猜测他们在退役之后，会不会留下跛脚之类的病患？
我有一点激动啊，似乎就靠打几下马，这些骑着快马骑手们——按照马可波罗的估计——就能每天跑大约250英里！（约合402.24km）
Richard Stanbery
Historian
And I must wonder if private correspondence ever passed from one end of the silk road to another?
Perhaps like from a Roman Caesar to a Chinese Emperor?
（lz再临）
那么，我有个问题——有没有什么私人书信，曾从丝路的一端送到另一端？比方说，罗马凯撒给中国皇帝来一封信？
（这位lz的问题其实有点囧里个囧的，不过，好萌）
DreamWeaver
Historian
Entirely possible, though as wil all historical sources, did it survive the viccissitudes of time?
Certainly in the Medieval Popes are sending messengers to the Mongols along the route with diplomatic
correspondence.
很有可能，不过那些历史资料能敌得过时间的无常么？当然，在中世纪教皇通过丝绸之路给蒙古人送去过外交信件。
leakbrewergator
Here's a good example of correspondence along the Silk Road:
Kharosthi Documents （日文？此人的头像也是一个头系日本国旗并头顶剃发的日本人形象）
这里有一个有关丝路上通信的好例子
http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/niyadocts.html
Richard Stanbery
Interesting that somebody paid 41 rolls of silk for a woman.
Seems like this fellow was some sort of investigator/ magistrate for the king, acting to personally
investigate these matters and administer the kings justice.
这事挺有意思的——有人曾用41卷丝绸交换一个女人。
似乎这个人是国王的文官或是研究员，他个人研究这些事并且为国王主持正义。
leakbrewergator
（回ls)
Seems expensive, doesn't it?
似乎挺贵的，是不是？
Richard Stanbery
Guess they didnt understand the concept of "dinner and a movie"?
我猜他们并不理解啥叫“吃个晚饭然后看场电影”。
转自爬山虎网贴翻译论坛：http://www.ptfcn.com/ptfcn/l/347.html |
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发表于 2011-2-18 19:10
