Yesterday 01:27 PM
Kashgar is a long wayfrom Beijingbut the cars and scooters and small trucks are all battery operated. I thinkfuel exhaust emission is illegal for local journeys.
oRecommended by 0 person
喀什葛尔离北京很远，但汽车啊摩托车啊小卡车啊都是电动的。我觉得燃料尾气排放在当地旅途是非法的。
Wisedragon
11/02/2011 05:44 AM
I was having dinner witha friend some years ago who happened to be the Foreign Affairs Leader in mycity. He has travelled to at least 55 countries.We are supposed to be thecleanest city in all Chinaand that day it was dusty. He was adamant the dust was because of the 600roadsweepers with their willow brooms ! I knew it was because of a dust stormfrom the Gobi some 2500kms away; we get themevery few years or so. I asked him how come my apartment on the 26th floor wassuddenly coated in a fine film of something sand-coloured, where they brushingin a super frenzy that day? He simply smiled in a mildly, patronising wayand knew he was right. I smiled inwardly knowing he was bonkers.
我早些年和一个朋友吃饭，恰巧他是我们市的外来事务领导。他去过至少55个国家。我们那应该是全中国最干净的城市而那天尘土飞扬。他坚定认为尘土是因为600个清洁工的柳条扫帚！我知道这是因为2500公里外的戈壁沙尘暴；我们每隔几年就碰到。我问他我26楼公寓的地上是怎么样突然披上一层薄薄的红黄色的东西，难道清洁工们那天发疯扫大街了吗？他仅仅委婉的笑了笑，希望我接灵子认为他还是对的。我腹黑的笑了笑发现这人实在是个脑残。
Jenny N. Crumbsey
Yesterday 07:57 AM
A quick clarificationconcerning the quoted excerpt of the acid observation comment on the GlobalTimes editorial :) The original commentwas alluding to exactly that rub: that the citizens are kept "dumb"by the simple means of appeasement rhetoric ("It is fog, not smog, youcommon people just can't tell the difference") although they do very wellhave the ability to make the distinction: yes, the region is naturally prone tofog, but fog does not burn your eyes and make you cough.
As long as it's just "the big fog", there will be no reason foranyone to start demanding or pressing. And for most here in Beijing, it really is nothing more than a bigfog. I see (and experience!) it as smog, but a majority of my Chinese friendsdo not.
o Recommended by 0 person
一个快速的声明关于引用的尖酸评论环球时报社论摘要：）最初的评论并不是暗指摩擦：而是市民让简单的一种妥协的修辞手法被“失声”（“那是雾，不是霾，你们普通人就是分不清。”）尽管市民分辨两者区别无压力：是的，那地方自然多雾，但雾不会刺激你的眼睛还让你咳嗽。
只有那是“大雾”，否则任何人没理由要求什么或施压。而且最重要的在北京这里，那就是大雾。我看到（并且经历了）那是霾，但我大多数中国朋友都不这么认为。
bunny_cyanide
10/31/2011 10:33 PM
it's a lot better in Beijing than it used tobe. you should try asking people about the pollution they used to get in Beijing in the 90s. youknow, every day folks who don't work in the Kerry Centre.
o Recommended by 0 person
北京现在比以前好多了。楼主该问问90年代的北京人。你知道的，每天不在嘉里中心工作的人。
buggerlugs
10/31/2011 10:01 PM
You have to give it toPeter Foster - truly, a man ahead of his time. I have no idea about the smog in Beijing,but I do know that the BMW X7 he refers to will not be available until 2013 http://bestautocar.info/car/th...A blip. A typo, surely. But then, the Audi Q7 doesn't have the 4 exhaust pipeshe refers to either - http://www.carautoportal.com/c...
These are piffling details, but indicative of a guy who paints with a broadbrush and is not especially worried about getting his underlying facts right.This is not the view of a snide foreigner - it is drivel from a third-ratejournalist with nothing better to write about.
o Recommended by 19 people
你应该告诉彼得福斯特——事实上一个男人之前这样说过。我对北京的雾霾没建议，但我知道他提到的宝马X7直到2013年才有http://bestautocar.info/car/the-largest-suv-bmw-x7/想必是打错了。但是，他提到的奥迪Q7也不是四排气管的——http://www.carautoportal.com/car-images/audi/audi-q7/audi-q7-2008.jpg
这些只是琐碎的细节，但反映出某人拿大刷子乱涂却不担心他基本的论据是否正确。这不是一个讽刺的外国人的观点——而是一个没东西写的三流记者的胡话。
FirstAdvisor
10/31/2011 06:57 PM
At last report, over 100universities and institutes in Chinawere strongly engaged in research and development of advanced filter technologyfor both air and water pollution control. Filtering simply removes pollutantsfrom air and water pipes out of an industrial building. In most cases, thecollected molecules have a resale value, sometimes quite high, to function as arecovery cost for the installation and maintenance of the equipment. Commentingon pollution in Chinawithout mentioning the ongoing mammoth surge in advanced filtration technologyR&D is simply writing half of a story, a slightlybiased endeavor.
o Recommended by 9 people
在最近篇报道中，超过100所中国大学和机构正全力投入研究和发展空气和水质污染控制的过滤技术。过滤技术简单的将工业排出气体和水中的污染物去除。大多数情况下收集的物质有再利用价值，有时还很高，可以用来补贴设备本金和维护成本。评论中国的污染却不提及如火如荼大规模进行的先进过滤技术的研究与开发，就像故事只开了个头，这略有点片面。
Bob Landy
10/31/2011 04:54 PM
Beijing smog: will Chinalearn from the West's mistakes?
Probably they already have, but they just don't give a fig as monetary gainis far more important.
o Recommended by 0 person
北京雾霾：中国会在西方的错误中吸取教训吗？
很可能他们已经吸取了教训，但他们没有像对金融利益一样在乎。
ChineseInUKBackinChina
10/31/2011 03:12 PM
Why compare with Dickens,not something more relevant, such as Mumbai or New Delhi?
o Recommended by 5 people
为什么和狄更斯比，没有更贴切的了吗？比如孟买和新德里？
mikeygow
10/31/2011 02:44 PM
Suzhou is much cleaner than Beijing.But traffic is a major, major problem. When are we going to get a one-carpolicy? Or have pedestrianized city centres?
Still, have to take issue. It wasn't that long ago that pollution in the UK was such anissue. And it wasn't democracy that got rid of it. It was outsourcing. Theoutsourcing of high-polluting manufacturing and heavy industry from the west toChina.
The chinese, in this sense, aren't victims oftheir own government alone. We are complicit in the poisoning of an entirenation.
What we should recognize, however, is the need to work harder, together, toproduce alternative energy sources. China is already investing more inthis than any other country. It won't be long before a breakthrough is made,I'm betting on tidal power.
Then there's nuclear fusion currently being constructed somewhere in France. That isvery efficient and very safe and could be the answer we've been looking for.
o Recommended by 9 people
苏州比北京干净。但交通是一个更主要的主要问题。我们何时有一车政策？或者市中心变步行街？
更不同意的是。英国污染成那样不是很久以前的事。并且并不是因为民主了摆脱污染。是靠外包。外包高污染的制造业和重工业从西方到中国。
中国人在这种意义上，不仅仅是他们自己政府的受害者。我们是同病相怜受整个国家的毒害。
然而我们应该认识到更加努力工作的必要性，同时生产多元的能源产业。中国已经比其他任何国家投入了更多在这上面。取得突破不会很远，我打赌在潮汐能上。
然后核能在法国兴建。效率高，又安全，这可能是我们寻找的答案。
rr2
10/31/2011 02:34 PM
I live near the coast inEastern China, and I would say that the smog here in summer is much better thanseveral years ago, Much to do with polluting Factories moving inland, howeverfrom Nov to March when the winds come out of the interior, we get the Wuhansmog, When sore eyes and and irritation of the throat is a major problem.
There is a saying （有利有弊）"you li you bi", meaning there positives and negatives to everythingincluding industrial development. The situation is compounded in China due tothe largely stagnant air and little percipitationin the late October to March period. Not sure there are any easy solutions, butI suggest better enforcement of routine replacing of the SO2 and particulatescrubbers on the Coal Power Stations.
o Recommended by 6 people
我住在华东沿海，我觉得夏天这的雾霾比几年前好多了。将污染的工厂搬到内陆还需努力，但从11月到3月当风从内陆刮来，武汉就雾霾天了，眼疼和咽喉不适是主要问题。
有句话叫有利有弊，意指任何事物包括工业发展有利也有弊。中国的情况是复合的，归因于10月底到3月大量停滞的空气和少量的降水。我不确定是否有简单地解决方法，但我建议更好的强制更换火力发电站的SO2和粉尘过滤器。
itzman
10/31/2011 02:27 PM
Chinais building nuclear power stations at a prodigious rate. It will get there.
It does have to balance air quality versus actual economic survival. Cut them alittle slack..
o Recommended by 6 people
中国正以惊人的速度建造核电站。
必须平衡空气质量对实际的经济残余。将他们稍稍放缓。
dr_melaena_peristalsis
10/31/2011 01:44 PM
History show us veryclearly that her lessons are always forgotten.
o Recommended by 2 people
ZhongGuoTomg
10/31/2011 01:15 PM
I usually dislike thenegativity of Peter Foster's reporting - and protest from time to time. But interms of the daily reality in much of China,what he writes in this report is frighteningly accurate - and the problems arenot just in Beijing.
The only problem is that everyone thinks that 'Beijing' can solve the problem. But, asanyone who has been here long enough knows, Beijing has little control over anythingmuch. Political slogans, yes. They do those well - but as for these rest, well,don't hold your breath.
Pollution is a way of thinking, it seems - and a 'fresh, clean air'concept is very much in the eyes and nose of the beholder. 'Filthyby western standards' days here are thought of by young Chinese as 'beautifuldays'. I live in a rural/near-city area and the worst pollution ofthe year comes not from anything that Beijinghas much control over. This pollution comes not at all from the march ofprogress. It's the farmers. Their pollution is just seen as a fact of life -for those who can survive the dreadful twice-yearly fortnights of the filthiestair that even Beijingmay produce. The farmers will burn their rape harvest stalks early in June(usually beginning on the night before the first day of the gaokao exams and inOctober or thereabouts after the rice harvest).
I complain, am exasperated, am breathless, etc. but everyone, suffering as muchas I do, simply shrugs their shoulders and says, 'You can't teach the farmersanything. They do what they like". A hefty fine might help of course butit's not levied. No one thinks of better uses of the farm refuse. They justburn it. It's what has always been done and that's sufficient reason for itsuntroubled continuance.
This might seem like a small thing to many outside China but the idea that youcan't stop the farmers, they do as they like is pretty much a description ofhow China is - everyone doing as they like, always borderingon chaos, with a Central government struggling usually quite ineffectuallyto exert control. And then outsiders pontificate on the China they think exists - but only in theirminds - monolithic Chinawith its despotic central government in control of every aspect of people'slives. They can't even put the brakes on the farmers'post-harvest fires from which we all suffer so much. To say nothing, of course, about what goes on on China'sroads. Let me at them and you'd have despotism indeed.
o Recommended by 6 people
· mikeygow
10/31/2011 02:48 PM
I took the train to shandong from Suzhoufor national holiday. On the way there and the way back, somewhere just northof Taishan (I think, either that or just to the south) farmers were burningcrops.
Visibility was zero for about 30 mins. On a train travelling around 300km/h.And they were doing this (I'm assuming) for the whole week I was in Shandong.
o Recommended by 3 people
我通常不喜欢彼得福斯特文章的消极性——不停的抗议。但就大体中国的现实来看，他写的是相当准确的——问题不只在北京。
唯一的问题是每个人都觉得“北京”能解决问题。但，正如每个常住北京的人知道，北京不管事。政治口号，是的。那做得挺好——但其他的，好的，别屏住呼吸。
污染像是一种思考方式——“清新的空气”在旁观者的眼与耳中很重要。“西方标准天气的污染”在年轻中国人看来是“美好的一天。”我住在城郊每年最严重的污染不是来自北京治理的东西。这污染完全不是来自社会发展。而来自农民。他们的污染就像生活的真相——对于那些可以活在每半年有两周的北京污染的空气里的人。农民们会在6月初烧稻杆（经常在高考前夜和十月或者水稻收获的左右）。
我抱怨，愤怒，窒息了等等。但大家和我一样，耸肩无奈“农民教不了，我行我素。”高额罚金也许有用但现在没有。没人知道农场垃圾怎么利用。他们就会烧。总是这样，他们倒不担心。
这对中国以外国家来说也许是小事，但你阻止不了农民们，他们我行我素就像中国的缩影——每个人都这样，近乎混乱，中央政府想加强控制却徒劳无获。而且外国的教皇在中国只存在于他们脑子里。整个中国和他专横的中央政府控制着人们生活的方方面面。他们甚至不能阻止令我们受害的农民收获后的大火。不用说，当然，中国的马路上会有什么，让我来@他们你就知道什么是专制了。
·我国庆乘火车从苏州到山东。一路上来来回回在泰山北面（我想，不是北就是南）农民们在烧庄稼
在时速300公里的火车上看了半小时。（我猜）我在山东的一周里他们都在这么做。
MrBishi
10/31/2011 12:50 PM
James Delingpole has justemailed me and asked me to tell you to pull yourself together.
He says that, that's not smog, or pollution, it's an opticalillusion caused by high gamma ray emissions from the sun.
o Recommended by 2 people
blueprint
10/31/2011 07:42 PM
Haha, the funniest thing is though that it wouldn't surprise me atall if he had.
o Recommended by 0 person
mikeygow
10/31/2011 02:50 PM
Dellingpole is a tw*t. An ignorant one at that.
o Recommended by 0 person
James Delingpole刚给我发邮件叫我让你振作起来。
他说那不是雾霾或者污染，是太阳发出的高伽马射线导致的光学幻像。
·哈哈，最有意思的是如果他真这么说我也不奇怪。
·Delingpole是个白痴。无知的家伙。
avataruk
10/31/2011 12:28 PM
The actual cost ofproviding emissions control on fossil fuelled plants is relatively small whenincluded within the original design and not later retro-fitted.
Leaving aside the increasing CO2 emissions consequences - which dwarf and rendertotally ineffective any planned/imposed UK CO2 emissions' savings, simplyproviding pollution control kits in all new Fossil Fuel Power Plants over thelast 10 years to comply with just the UK 1950's Clean Air Act provisions wouldhave cost relatively nothing compared to current China investment levels, butwould have massively reduced, if not completely removed, any smog problems.
The West has been conned by these developing countries during all the past"Climate Change/IPPC "negotiations". Onlynow are the western "experts" realising that China's CO2 emissionsper head of population will equal the UK's next year - many years earlier thanpreviously forecast by these so called "experts" and with no sign ofany rate of increase reduction, let alone any reductions in the future. Theyare massively increasing, and not reducing, CO2 levels each year - more than wegenerate in total let alone are attempting to save.
These CO2 and pollutant emissions problems with increasing capacities of fossilfuelledpower generation being built in China, and India and other developingcountries makes a complete mockery of us spending billions on Wind Farms andeven Nuclear Power, particularly when we now have abundent andpotentially much cheaper UK shale gas!
What price will the Chinese pay for a UK essential export - a suitably packaged Huhne and other Green fanatics. Theycould be more effective in reducing global CO2 emissions working in China and Indiathan they ever could in the UK,given "co-operation"!
o Recommended by 0 person
当使用最初设计而不是之后的改进时，实际的花费在化石燃料电厂上提供排放物控制相对较少。
放任CO2排放增长的结果——矮化，完整的呈现了任何计划的/推行的英国CO2排放的节省不给力，在过去十年简单的提供化石燃料电厂污染控制套件，来服从英国1950年代的空气洁净法令，花费相对少就如同现在中国的投资水平，但可以大大解决雾霾问题，如果不彻底放弃这个办法。
在所有过去“气候变化/国际植物保护公约协议中”，西方被这些发展中国家欺骗了。只有现在西方“专家”意识到中国的CO2排放人均等于英国明年的量——但这些所谓的“专家”比先前的预报早很多年，知道发展中国家没有降低减排的迹象，更不用说以后的减排。它们大量增加，没有减少，CO2等级每年——超过我们总共生成的，更不用说尝试节省了。
这些CO2和污染物排放问题伴随化石燃料发电能力增长的一代在中国建造，印度和其他发展中国家完全取笑我们花费几十亿在风力田和核能，特别当我们发现有充足和潜在便宜得多的英国天然气层。
中国人会对英国潜在的出口付多少钱呢——一个合理包装的Chris Huhne和其他绿色团体。他们可能在中国和印度减少全球CO2排放更有效，超过在英国，给予“合作”！
rogerhicks
10/31/2011 11:13 AM
" . . will Chinalearn from the West's mistakes?"
Whyshould it, when the West still hasn't learned from them itself . . .?!
.
o Recommended by 11 people
mikeygow
10/31/2011 02:50 PM
HEar, hear.
o Recommended by 1 person
“中国吸取西方的教训？”
需要吗，西方何时吸取自身教训？！
·了解了解
HugoandFreddie
10/31/2011 11:13 AM
All very Los Angles circa 1985, quite easy to deal with itjust follow the state of California's emission regs.
Simples!
o Recommended by 3 people
洛杉矶大约1985年，很好的处理了问题，仅依照了加利福尼亚的排放规定。简单！
10/31/2011 11:11 AM
You do realise that China has apopulation of over a thousand million people...
o Recommended by 4 people
HugoandFreddie
10/31/2011 11:25 AM
Errr yes!
o Recommended by 1 person
rogerhicks
10/31/2011 11:18 AM
Andall expecting (and encouraged by a growth-dependenteconomy) to own their own car (or two) and to become frequent fliers . . .
It's complete madness, but because it's so "normal" - it's what the"successful" West has done - and good (or rather, essential) forbusiness, we are blinded to it, as if under some form of collectivepost-hypnotic suggestion.
.
o Recommended by 9 people
HugoandFreddie
10/31/2011 11:28 AM
Yep,so when you put India and China's population together you get close to 3billion people who want what you have mate, and don't forget that China isstill ing a new coal burning powerstation a week and it is still miles behind on satisfying energy demand.
Oh BTW Beijing and Shanghai experience fewer power outages thandoes Washington and NYC. Chinaalso has better train networks, mobile phone coverage and broadband access thanthe US.
o Recommended by 4 people
multifinlayson
10/31/2011 02:04 PM
Butnot such good access to Facebook or Twitter I hear. Much better Firewallsthough.
o Recommended by 0 person
mikeygow
10/31/2011 02:53 PM
Facebookand Twitter. How do people live without it?
Easy. They use Renren/Kaixing and Sina Weibo.
HugoandFreddie
10/31/2011 02:10 PM
Arghhh,the Chinese are much clever than that Sir! Instead of providing good access toFacebook they have provided their citizens with Weibo!
dickgreendoxon
10/31/2011 12:16 PM
..............plusa few million pollution-related deaths per annum.
itzman
10/31/2011 02:27 PM
Plentymore where those came from as they say.
你该知道中国人口超过10亿吗…
·额，是的
·所有期待（并由依赖经济增长的鼓励）拥有自己的车（或两辆）并经常开。。。
这的确疯狂，但因为太“普通”——这是西方取得的“成功”——对商业来说有益（或者更准确的说，必要）。我们却没有看到，就像集体催眠后的情况。
·是，当你把印度和中国的人口放一起，就有30亿人，别忘了中国每周还在批准新的火力发电，并且离满足能源需求还差得远。
顺便说一句北京和上海经历的断电比华盛顿和纽约少。中国比美国也有更好的火车网络，通讯覆盖和宽带。
· 但连不到脸谱和推特我听说。尽管有更好的防火墙。
·脸谱和推特，人怎么能没有它们？
简单，他们用人人/开心 和微博。
· 啊，中国人比那些大佬聪明啊！提供他们微博来取代脸谱！
·每年增加几百万与污染相关的死亡。
·正如他们说的，那些源头死的更多。
狗仔卡
楼主
提升卡
变色卡
抢沙发
千斤顶
显身卡
发表于 2011-11-6 16:35
发表于 2011-11-6 22:07
