【经济学人】世界上最大的中国与印度的移民社区在哪里呢？

葱头葱头

原创翻译： http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译：cellxiecao


图示：红色-中国移民   
灰色-印度移民
数字的单位是百万人，比如1代表1百万人
恩，补充下，右下角有句话被龙腾网水印盖掉了，意思是：台湾有23.2百万华裔没有标出来。



MORE Chinese people live outside mainland China than French people live in France, with some to be found in almost every country. Some 22m ethnic Indians are scattered across every continent. Diasporas have been a part of the world for millennia. But today their size (if migrants were a nation, they would be the world’s fifth-largest) and the ease of staying in touch with those at home are making them matter much more. No other social networks offer the same global reach—and shrewd firms are taking notice. Our map highlights the world's top 20 destinations for Chinese and Indian migrants.
住在中国大陆之外的中国人比住在法国里的法国人还多，这样的中国人几乎可以在所有的国家中找到。大概两千两百万的印度族裔人群散布在各个大陆上。移民社群作为世界的一种组成已经有上千年时间了，但是今天他们的规模（如果移民是一个民族，那么他们将是世界第五大民族）以及与家乡同胞间联系的便利让他们变的更重要，没有其他的社会网络如此全球化——同时精明的公司已经开始注意到他们。我们的地图标明了中国和印度移民在这个世界上的前20个热门目标。

葱头葱头

以下是评论翻译，时间顺序。后边的数字是推荐数。 No Mist Nov 17th 2011 15:15 GMT
why are Hong Kong and Macau considered as ethnic non-Chinese territories ? Practically their entire population is Chinese.
为什么香港和澳门被当作非中国族裔的地区呢？他们基本上所有人都是中国人。
Recommend  137
cdwllms Nov 17th 2011 15:17 GMT
Is the data showing Chinese and Indian nationals abroad or people of Chinese and Indian descent outside of China and India? Big difference, no?这个数据标明的是中国与印度在国外的国民呢？还是住在中国与印度之外的华裔与印度裔人群呢？区别很大不是么？
Recommend 86
iewgnem Nov 17th 2011 15:19 GMT
I like how the Chinese city of Hong Kong has a large number of Chinese residents, you never would have guessed
我很喜欢中国城市香港为何有这么大量的中国居民这事儿，你们永远都猜不到答案。（吐槽把香港标出来）
Recommend 123
shaun39 Nov 17th 2011 15:25 GMT
So, Indian citizens make over a third of the UAE population, and quickly rising...
Less than half of the United Arab Emirates' population is Arab. Will there come a time when the Emirates are no longer even an Islamic state?
所以说呢，印度裔的公民占了阿联酋三分之一的人口，而且还在快速增加。。。
阿联酋里的阿拉伯人还不到总人口的一半，阿联酋在未来会不会不再是一个伊斯兰国家呢？
Recommend 47
Ah Beng in reply to cdwllms  Nov 17th 2011 15:28 GMT
My guess is, given that census data in the United States, at least, does not take into account second-generation Americans' parents' country of origin, the data shows only nationals abroad and those who have become naturalized citizens.
The ethnic Indian and Chinese population in America is certainly far larger. I would guess that there are more than 3 million people of Chinese descent and more than 2 million people of Indian descent on the West Coast alone.
鉴于美国的普查数据，我想这地图没有把第二代美国人父母的原籍考虑进去，这地图只标明了再海外的国民和那些入籍公民。（意思是ABC什么的没被没算进去）
在美国的中国与印度族裔人口数量铁定要比标出来的大得多，我估计单在西海岸就有三百万中国裔移民和两百万印度裔移民。
Recommend 23
Jeremy Wong Fischer Nov 17th 2011 15:29 GMT
At some point this century I hope to see not only a post-racial world but a post-nationalist world where borders are considered political abstractions rather than a definition of identity. This is more or less the case in the United States and Canada today but in other places, particularly in East Asia, the Middle East, and much of continental Europe, there is still a fine dividing line on what makes someone 'foreign
有些时候我希望在这个世纪我不仅仅能看到一个“后种族”的世界， 而且能看到一个“后民族”（后民族主义或者后国家，反正就这意思）的世界，在这个世界里边界只是抽象的政治性的而不是身份的象征。这或多或少是今天不仅在美国和加拿大同时在其他地方，尤其是东亚，中东，欧洲大陆的许多地方依旧有条分界线把别人划归“外来的”的原因。
Turkish immigrants for example, are having trouble integrating even three generations in. In the Middle East conservative citizenship laws forbid people of South Asian and Filipino descent to ever become citizens no matter how many generations the family has lived there. In Korea people react to Virginia Tech massacre as a 'national tragedy' just because a Korean-American fired the gun. Japan, despite its need for immigrants, grants permanent residency only to those foreigners of "Japanese ancestry".
用土耳其移民来举例吧，他们就算是三代人都难以融入社会。在中东，保守的公民法禁止南亚与菲律宾人成为他们的公民，不论他们的家庭在那里生活了多少代。在韩国人们把弗尼吉亚理工大学大学大屠杀当作国耻仅仅是是因为一个韩裔美国人开的枪。不算日本对于移民的需求，日本也仅仅给予日本血统的外国人永久居留权。
I find this 'identity' issue extremely pronounced, being a Canadian of Chinese ancestry, how my national identity can shift depending on which country I am in (i.e. in the US I am always identified as being "Canadian" yet in places like France I can never be accepted as anything but "Chinese" despite my fluent Canadian English and my Canadian passport).
作为一个中国血统的加拿大人，我发现这样的“身份”问题异常明显。我的身份因为我在去了哪个国家而不断变换（举例来说，在美国我被当做加拿大人，但同时在法国这样的地方即使我有流畅的加式英语以及加拿大护照，我依旧只会被当成是中国人）
Another stark contrast I find with Chinese and Indian diasporas is that Indians tend to remain more "true" to their heritage whereas Chinese immigrants tend to integrate quickly into host societies (there are exceptions to this rule obviously, see Malaysia or West Vancouver). For example, Chinese Trinidadians and Chinese Jamaicans identify much more with 'mainstream' Carribean culture than they do with Chinese culture, many of them have mixed marriages, and almost none speak any Chinese language; but Carribean residents of Indian descent still watch Bollywood and know of happenings on the subcontinent, and miraculously still speak their ancestral language four or five generations after they left India. Similar trends are found in Mauritius, East Africa, and much of the Western world. All in all the Indian diaspora appears to have a much more united identity than their Chinese counterparts, thus the value of their network may well be greater.
另外，我发现中国移民与印度移民对比鲜明的一点就是，印度人更多的保留他们所带来的文化习俗而同时中国人很快的融入东道主的社会当然也有例外，比如马来西亚与西温哥华）举例来说，华裔特立尼达人与华裔牙买加人比起中国文化，更贴近加勒比文化的主流。他们许多人都通婚并且不说汉语。但是居住在加勒比的印度移民依旧观看看宝莱坞并且知道次大陆上在发生什么，并且在离开印度后的四到五代人后依旧在奇迹般的使用祖先的语言。同样的情况也发生在东非的毛里求斯和西方世界的许多地方。总的来说印度的移民相比其他们的中国同伴看起来更加的团结的身份认同，因此他们的社交网络的价值估计会更大。
An interesting chart for the Economist would be to see how many of the diaspora still identify as being 'Chinese' and 'Indian'. It would dramatically skew the picture.
一个标明有多少移民依旧保有“中国人“与”印度人“身份的图表对于经济学人来说会非常有趣，这会极大的扭曲这张图。
Recommend 169

happyfish18 Nov 17th 2011 15:34 GMT
Why single out the Chinese and Indians only? The biggest diaspora communities are the Anglos, Germans, Spaniard, Jews, Poles, Italian migrants from the old world displacing and killing off most of the native species through genocides.
为什么单独把中国人和印度人标出来？最大的移民群体是从旧世界出来通过种族灭绝驱赶并杀掉原住民的盎格鲁，德国，西班牙，犹太，波兰，意大利移民。
Recommend 133
F. Alva in reply to cdwllms Nov 17th 2011 15:36 GMT
nationals abroad is the definition of imigrants
descendants are not considered imigrants
国外的国民是移民的定义。其后裔并不被当作移民。
Recommend 22
FFScotland in reply to Ah Beng Nov 17th 2011 15:52 GMT
Do children of immigrants see themselves as diaspora? In my experience they have a very different idea of own nationality, compared with their parents who spent their formative years in the mother country. For their parents, it's simple: they are Chinese, Indian or whatever. They may be US or British citizens for example and lead a fully integrated life in their community, but citizenship is a function of that life; it's not what they are. Their children on the other hand see themselves as being American or British (of possibly a special kind) and not Chinese or Indian because they have connections with China and India and are somewhat alienated from those cultures.
移民的孩子们依旧觉得自己住在国外吗？在我的经验中他们对自己的国籍与在原籍生活过的父母相比有非常不同的看法。对于他们的父母，简单：他们是中国人，印度人，或者其他什么人。举个例子，他们或许是美国公民，英国公民，并且完全在自己所在的社区内过完一生，那么国籍只是在这种生活中完成功能，并不是他们是什么人的定义。他们的孩子却把自己看做美国人或者英国人（或者特别的一种）而不是中国人印度人，因为他们虽然与中国和印度有联系但是却疏远了那些文化。
Recommend 16
New Conservative Nov 17th 2011 15:55 GMT
It's kind of weird that Hong Kong is considered foreign while Taiwan is considered Chinese.
If it's by political separation, Taiwan is more politically independent than Hong Kong. If it's by ethnicity, then Macau, Hong Kong, and Taiwan should all be included or all be exempted.
香港被当做外国地区而同时台湾被当做中国地区真是一件奇怪的事情。
如果是考虑政治独立性，那么台湾要比香港独立的多。如果考虑的是民族，那么香港，澳门，台湾都应该被全部包进去或者全部排出去。
Recommend 45
Sherbrooke Nov 17th 2011 16:16 GMT
I'm a bit sceptical about the numbers.
For Canada, this seems to involve immigration from Hong Kong and Taiwan in the 80-90es. It is actually quite a big difference.
Currently, immigration from China (Taiwan is tabulated separately) runs around 30k/year - not a small number, indeed, but USA/UK/France/Germany together clock roughly the same number of people moving.
我对这个数字有些怀疑。
就加拿大来说，这似乎包括了80-90年代从台湾与香港来的移民，这造成了很大的区别。
就先在而言，从中国来的移民（台湾另算）大约每年三万人——的确不是一个小数字，但是同时美国，英国，德国，法国的移民数字加起来也有这么多。
Recommend 12
Pyramider Nov 17th 2011 16:18 GMT
How astonishing that tiny Mauritius has 0.9m Indians out of a 1.2m population.
小小的毛里求斯里总共一百二十万人口，其中九十万都是印度人是多么的惊人啊。
Recommend 21
manbearpiggy Nov 17th 2011 16:20 GMT
To count people of Indian descent in the Carribean, South Africa, Mauritius, south Pacific and Malaysia among Indian diaspora is akin to counting African-Americans as west-African diaspora.
These were forced migrations. And it is unlikely that most of them have any family contacts back in their "homeland".
把加勒比，南非，毛里求斯，南太平洋与马来西亚的印度裔族群数作印度移民就像把从非洲裔美国人数作西非的移民一样。
他们都是被迫移民，而且不见得他们都还和故乡有什么家庭联系。
Recommend 40
wmcd836 in reply to Jeremy Wong Fischer Nov 17th 2011 16:29 GMT
What exactly is the evidence that most citizens of the United States and Canada understand their country's borders primarily as "political abstractions" more or less irrelevant to their identity? I understand that these countries are, more than others, "nations of immigrants" whose liberal political constitutions preceded their populations coming to have what one might call "national" or "cultural" characteristics; but these places do have these characteristics. Being "American" is still generally thought of as a matter of speaking and acting a certain way because other people speak and act that way in a particular place; otherwise nobody would ever say "American culture."
I think what you really mean in your opening paragraph is that you hope to see a culture that is indifferent to ancestry exist in all places, but this is a different thing than expecting "identity" to have no real relationship to place. And I think even this much (the former) will be more difficult to bring into being in places (Korea, for example) that, unlike the United States, consist mainly of populations with very ancient ties or claims to the land.
On another note, how can the "value" of the Indian "network" be "greater" than that of their "Chinese counterparts" if national identity is simply undesirable?
（这个是回复前边那个长篇大论者的）
什么是美国与加拿大公民把自己国家的边界更多的当做“政治抽象性的”而与身份无关的明确证据呢？我明白这些国家相较于别的国家的确算是“移民的国度”，他们自由主义的政治宪法优先于他们人民拥有自己的国民和文化特色。但是这些地方的确拥有这样的特色，“美国式的”依然普遍被看作是一种言行的一定方式，其原因在于其他人只有在独特的场合才按这种方式言行，否则的话就不会有人说什么“美国文化”
我想你开头一段的真正意思是你想看到一个把各种血统一视同仁的文化，但是这和期望“身份”和地域没有真正联系是不同的。我想这种观点很难被有些地方接受（比如韩国），和美国不同，他们的人民对自己的土地有古老的情结。
另外，如果民族认同不可取，那么印度的“网络”的“价值”如何比他们的“中国同行”更大呢？
Recommend 15

葱头葱头

silent night Nov 17th 2011 16:34 GMT
It is a common sense that Taiwan,HongKong,Macau are parts of China,just as London is a city of UK.The residents in Taiwan,HongKong,Macau are immigrants.
Few people will look on Korean with Chinese nationality as foreign
immigrants who generally been looked on as the people from other province or northerners.Now many Chinese immigrants in Korean actually are Chinese-Korean.
UK should be the largest source of immigrants.Certainly,more American come from Germany than UK although they can not speak German.

普遍的观点是台湾，香港，澳门都是中国的一部分，就像伦敦是英国的一个城市。在香港，澳门，台湾的居民是移民

很少有人会把中国朝鲜族人当做外来移民，他们看起来和别的省份的人或者东北人一样。现在在韩国的中国移民实际上许多都是华裔韩国人。

英国应该是移民最大的源头，虽然不说德语，但是比起英国美国人更多的来自于德国。

Recommend 24

bdevin7 Nov 17th 2011 16:38 GMT

Although this graph's data may be accurate, the way it is represented is misleading. Anyone who has taking a probability and statistics class can easily see how this graph is misleading to its viewers. Representing the populations with circles according to size is a terrible way to show this. The best thing to do would be solely use the numbers or actually use a bar graph. The large red circles intertwine with the next and can cause confusion to many people.

尽管这个图像的数据或许是有精度的，他的表达方式还是在造成误导。任何学过概率和统计课程（译者表示学过）都可以轻易的看出这个图片是如何误导观看的人的。用圆圈大小来表式人口的多少真是一种糟糕透顶的方式。最好的方式应该是单独使用数字或者条状图表。一个一个相交的大红圆圈很容易给人造成混淆。

Recommend 12

glen polo Nov 17th 2011 16:45 GMT
The Chinese and Indians are the fast growing populations and economies in the world. It is likely that their main cities are getting over populated and they are migrating else where. A near place for them to migrate would be in the southeast part of the world near Thailand and Cambodia. A farther place to migrate is the United States where they hold their arms open for new immigrants. It is also the land of opportunity and many foreigners go there to receive an education.

中国人和印度人不论人口还是经济都在世界范围内快速增长。看起来他们的主要城市似乎都人口过剩所以他们移民到了别的地方。一个较近的适合移民的地方就是世界东南方的泰国和柬埔寨附近的地区。远一点的话就是总是欢迎新移民的美国，同样这是一片机遇的土地，同时许多外国人去那里接受教育。

Recommend9

IMOO Nov 17th 2011 16:50 GMT
I'm curious who gets counted as "Chinese" or "Indian" in this chart. In the US, if a Chinese immigrant marries a caucasian, are their children still considered part of the "Chinese diaspora"? Most Asian mixed race children I know look not even remotely Asian after 1 mixed generation. My niece who is 1/4 Japanese has blonde hair blue eyes, you would never know she's 1/4 Japanese, or that his dad is 1/2 Japanese, neither even look it. And if a Singaporean of Chinese descent moves to the US or Canada, is he/she considered Singaporean or Chinese?

我很好奇在这个图表里谁被算作了“中国裔”或“印度裔”。在美国，如果一个中国移民和一个高加索人结婚，他们的孩子还算作“中国裔移民”吗？我知道大多数亚洲的混血儿童在一代混血之后看起来一点跟亚洲沾不上边。我侄女有四分之一日本血统，她又棕色头发和蓝眼睛，你根本猜不到她有四分之一日本血统，他爹爹有二分之一，结果也一样。那么假如一个新加坡的华裔移民到了美国或加拿大，他算作新加坡裔还是中国裔呢？

In Southeast Asia, the Chinese have lived there for generations, in Vietnam, Myanmar, Thailand, Indonesia, Phillipines, they don't even have Chinese names and most of the time you can't even tell them apart from the natives, why are they still counted as Chinese? At least in Malaysia they retain their Chinese names and heritage but that's only because the natives are muslims so they don't mix.

在东南亚，华裔已经住在那里好几代人了，在越南，缅甸，泰国，印度尼西亚，菲律宾，他们甚至没有中文名字，许多时候你甚至没办法把他们和原住民分开，为什么他们还被算作华裔呢？至少在马来西亚他们还在使用中文的名字和其他文化遗产这也仅仅因为原住民是穆斯林，他们混不起来。

In the US and Canada, the Indian disapora tend to retain their cultural heritage much more so than the Chinese, who tend to intermarry and "disappear" after a generation or two. But I know of Indians who were born and raised in the US who still let their parents arrange for marriages with someone back in India. I'm guessing it's because of the religion. Is there a rule in Hinduism that says you must be born a Hindu, you can't convert into the religion? Do Indians in England intermarry with whites? What about the Chinese in France or Russia, is the intermarriage rate high?

在美国和加拿大，印度移民们比起中国移民更多的保留文化遗产，而中国移民则趋向与通婚并且在一代或者两代后消失。但我知道一些生在美国长在美国的印度裔人依旧让他们的父母安排他们和在印度的人的婚姻。我猜这是因为宗教的原因，有没有一条印度教规规定你必须生来即是一名印度教徒而且不能改信呢？在英国的印度裔和白人通婚呢？在法国和俄罗斯的中国人又如何呢？通婚率很高吗？

Recommend 23