麻煩替我改一下好嗎? 我的普通話拼音不太靈光, 經常受廣東發音影響.
謝謝啦
還有, 我現在譯的回應裡, 有個傢伙說, 班禪這封號是五世達賴封給他老師四世班禪的.
我手上只有中文資料, 希望找到英文, 或是不是大陸官 ...
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我們看得懂繁體 而且繁體很好看 你不用那么麻煩 我們小時候要學兩種文字的 兄弟謝謝你 翻譯 我也想说话,虽然我代表不了藏族人,但我奶奶是100%的藏族,我身体里有1/4的藏族血统.
我奶奶(1914年生)自5岁时被奴隶主卖到云南,到死都联系不上她的父母和兄弟,自我爸读完书后陪奶奶去藏区寻了20年都没找不到.
DL整天作秀一样全世界宣传他过去天堂一样的藏区,我看着就来气!本来气归气,我家跟DL没有直接的关系,是他们那个奴隶主阶层的债!但一看到DL不停冒头打尖(毕竟他是奴隶主的指挥),我一想起奶奶去世时还要我爸有时间一定再去找找看,现在我一看到DL还想回中国就忍不住想打他,等着吧,有机会实现了我肯定去我奶奶坟前报告!
New View 文章翻譯列表
2008-6-8 12:00 一位西藏東部藏人的文章 (ltbriar) 原文連接2008-6-8 22:50 又一榮譽-祝賀dl喇嘛 (risris08) 原文連接
回复 24楼 ltbriar 的帖子
这样回答他：1 班禅 全称叫 班禅额尔德尼 是由清代康熙帝亲自册封为藏传佛教格鲁派(黄教)领袖班禅的正式封号，简称班禅(喇嘛)，不能独称“额尔德尼”。
2、元朝 蒙古 固始汗 入藏，封四世班禅为“班禅博克多”，意为第一班禅。格鲁派确认他为四世班禅，追认宗喀巴的门徒克珠杰为一世班禅，1645年罗桑确吉坚赞因帮助蒙古和硕特固始汉征服西藏有功，赠“班禅博克多”称号。博克多为蒙古语，意为智、英武，此为班禅名义之始，
3、罗桑确吉坚赞为第四世班禅。1713年清廷加封“额尔德尼”（满语，为梵文 ratna 的变音，意译宝师）称号，颁金册金印，正式承认。历代都有金银金册，西藏博物馆可以看到部分。
4、 康熙五十二年（1713年）封五世班禅为“班禅额尔德尼”，为黄教树立另一领袖，以便分权统治。
5 、历代DL和班禅是互为师徒的关系 ，他们的地位是平等的，不存在DL给合自己地位一样的人颁封号，此外会有农奴统治者给自己另立一地位平等之人分权统治吗？
[ 本帖最后由 suxi 于 2008-6-9 05:32 编辑 ] Well, Anonymous, your noted scholar should be John Power, who was then Senior Lecturer in the Asian History Centre, the Australian National University. I don't understand why you didn't quote his name?
If he is really a noted scholar, then he must work harder to live up with his name. The first quote is full of misrepresentations and mistakes, starting from the 1st line.
1. Bodong Choklay Namgyel, if we are referring to the same the founder of the Jonang-pa sect,Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal (pronounced Choklay Namgyel, 1306～1386)(Ref. Tucci (1949), pp.659-661, p.704, fn.848及Table XVI-Genealogy of Zhva Lu，Ruegg, pp.12-13) or your Bodong Choklay Namgyei).
Gendün Drüp, or the 1st Dalai birth and death years are 1391-1474.Please verify yourself, how can your contemporary Choklay Namgyel addressed Gendün Drüpas "Great Scholar", when the boy was only born 5 years after he died?? Fascinating, isn't it?And who is this Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal or your Bodong Choklay Namgyei? He was a great scholar indeed, and actually teacher of 1st Dalai 's master, the legendary Tsongkhapa (1357-1419).
Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal or your Bodong Choklay Namgyei, (1306～1386)
Tsongkhapa (1357-1419).
Gendün Drüp (1391-1474), make sense??
2. The Title "Panchen" was not conferred by Dalai 5th, but Gushri Khan (1582-1654) of Khoshut. In 1634, Dalai 5th and Panchen 4th (masterminded by Panchen 4th aged 64, as Dalai 5th was 17) were threatened by other Tibetan sects and linked with Gushri Khan to suppress their rivals. But Gushri Khan then set foot in Tibet. Later under Panchen's plan, Dalai sought for help from the Qing Emperor to drive Gushri Khan away. Panchen 5th further got the title confirmation from Qing Emperor in 1713 from Kangxi.
3. The Title Panchen or Dalai did not come from among themselves. The 3rd Dalai, Soinam Gyatso (1543—1588)successful converted Altan Khan of Tumet Mongols in 1578 and they exchanged titles. So Soinam Gyatso got his Dalai, meaning Sea of Wisdom. Altan Khan had been granted by Ming Dynasty as Shunyi Lord. Well in ancient times, communications were not like now, so being in the remote Tibetan Plateau, Ming might seem a great dynasty to Soinam Gyatso, who asked Altan Khan to seek for acknowledgment from the Ming Emperor, while he himself wrote to the Prime Minister Zhang Juzheng for grant of his title. The Ming Emperor allowed his wish and the grant script had "Dalai" and was later confirmed in 1587.Soinam Gystso prepared to go to Beijing to express his thanks but died on the way in Mongolia in 1588. This was the story of Dalai's title, and was clearly documented in the Ming's account. Not something invented in 1995 in Australia.
4. If you read your quote carefully, you will find it's self-contradictory.
"although they did not belong to Tashi Lhünpo monastery", the tie between Panchen and Tashi Lhünpo basically started from Panchan 4th. Tashi Lhünpo was built by Gendün Drüp in 1447, The 1st two Panchens (Khedrup Je, 1385–1438, Sönam Choklang 1438–1505) were either dead or happily heading his own Ganden Monastery.
"Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen’s successor was later recognised as the fourth Panchen Lama."
If your notable scholar did his study, he won't make such mistakes. Dalai's title was retroactively granted to the 1st 2 Dalai, because it was 3rd Dalai who started the title, and for Panchen, there were 3 previous Panchen for such retroactive recognition, because it was the 4th Panchen who started to hold this title. Therefore Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen’s successor should be the 5th Panchen Lama.If he cannot get such simple fact right, I can't believe he can get other stuff any better either. In my words, only fooling people more stupid and ignorant than him.
Panchen 4th actually helped to establish Dalai 4th, as well as Dalai 5th, and had much to contribute in the establishment of Dalai 5th actually. Why? because Dalai 4th met sudden death, after being Dalai for 5 years at the age of 27!!! Panchen 4th was not only a learned monk, he was a great politician. It was he who master-mind the collaboration with Gushri Khan and later with Qing Dynasty to stabilize Gelug against the other sects. As mentioned aforesaid, he was 64 and Dalai 5th was only 17. Rather than it was Dalai who GAVE his teacher the Tashi Lhünpo, would it not be "face saving" as your notable scholar said, that the young Dalai had no choice, or that he owed a lot to Panchan? So much so that it was not "who" GAVE "whom" what title or temple, as a from top to bottom kind of implication, but rather as whose muscle was stronger?
When studying something far from your own culture and history background, how can one rely on just bits and pieces from hearsay or so-called research of one "scholar" and accept everything as-is, without really in-depth study and considering all the historical, political, cultural background and their inter-related cause and effect, and claim one's knowledge is THE FACT?
[ 本帖最后由 ltbriar 于 2008-6-9 07:40 编辑 ]
回复 29楼 ltbriar 的帖子
Bodong Choklay Namgyel的网页好多 不信你GOOGLE一下第一条就是：
'Hands for the Panchen Lama' Campaign | Friends of Tibet (INDIA)- [ 翻译此页 BETA ]Gyalwa Gendun Drup also received the name Panchen from an erudite Tibetan contemporary, Bodong Choklay Namgyel, when he answered all of the latter's ...
Bodong 是不是博克多 之意？
既然Gyalwa就是那个14岁逃到印度的大宝法王。
那么，还有一个是他们自己的网站：http://www.friendsoftibet.org/sofar/calcutta/hands.html
"Gyalwa Gendun Drup also received the name Panchen from an erudite Tibetan contemporary, Bodong Choklay Namgyel, when he answered all of the latter's questions."
所以明显Bodong Choklay Namgyel是现代人嘛~~
你可以去看下那个网站 可以知道他们听了DL妖言，说我门把真的班禅绑架了~~ 现在的班禅是假的等等。我看过一个视频 Gyalwa 大宝法王在没有逃出去之前是参加了十一世班禅确吉杰布的加冕典礼的。
央视纪录片《班禅坐床十年》里的画面：
[ 本帖最后由 suxi 于 2008-6-9 06:27 编辑 ]
回复 67楼 ltbriar 的帖子
很好很强大 还可以举几个前清就夭折的例子dl九世名隆朵嘉措，只活了十一岁。dl十世名楚臣嘉措(1816～1837)，只活了二十二岁。dl十一世名凯珠嘉措(1838～1855)，只活了十八岁。dl十二世名成烈嘉措(1856～1875)，只活了二十岁。十三世dl将九世班禅驱除出藏……whose muscle was strongerltbriar你好强，翻那么大段英文，那些藏文名字我都快看晕了:lol
譯文, 最好有熟悉西藏歷史朋友指正, 因我也是網上搜資料
好哇, Anonymous, 你那有名的學者該是當時任澳洲National University亞洲歷史中心高級講師的John Power吧? 不懂為什麼你不引他名字出來?如果他真是有名學者, 他必須發奮來實符其名才行了。你引的第一段打第一行就錯誤連連。
1. Bodong Choklay Namgyel, 如果我們是同樣指覺南派創始人布敦却雷南杰(Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal 發音: Choklay Namgyel, 1306～1386) 的話。(引用: Tucci (1949), pp.659-661, p.704, fn.848及Table XVI-Genealogy of Zhva Lu，Ruegg, pp.12-13)
根敦朱巴, 或達賴一世生卒是1391-1474。請查對一下, 你那 Choklay Namgyel 能同期稱根敦朱巴是「大學者」? 根敦朱巴這孩子是他自己死了5年之後才誕生的, 可能嗎?? 太神了吧?然後這却雷南杰是何許人也? 他真是個大學者, 事實上是達賴一世那傳奇師傅宗喀巴(1357-1419)的老師
却雷南杰(1306～1386)
宗喀巴 (1357-1419).
根敦朱巴(1391-1474), 對頭吧??
2. 「班禪」封號不是由達賴五世給的, 而是由蒙古和碩特部固始汗 (1582-1654) 給的。1634年達賴五世及班禪四世(由64歲的班禪四世策劃, 因達賴五世才17歲)受到其他西藏教派威脅而連合固始汗來壓制對手。可是固始汗易請難送, 賴在西藏了。後來又是班禪計謀連清朝以對付固始汗。後來班禪五世又從清帝康熙那裡再獲封號確認。
3. 班禪跟班禪的封號都不是他們自己互相贈予的。三世達賴索南嘉措 (1543- 1588) 成功在1578年勸服了土默特部的俺答汗信佛教, 他們互換封號。索南嘉措就得「達賴」之名, 意為智慧海。俺答汗當時已受明朝封為順義王。那時代訊息不像我們現在, 處於邊遠西藏高原的索南嘉措可能覺得大明朝還是了不起, 他請求俺答汗為他向明朝請封, 他自己也向宰相張居正求封。後來皇帝頒封裡就有「達賴」兩字, 然後在1587年確認, 索南嘉措還準備去北京謝恩, 誰知1588年到了蒙古就死掉了。這就是達賴封號的來由, 而且是在明朝宮廷記錄記載, 不是1995年在澳洲創作的。
4. 如果你仔細看自己所引, 就會發覺是自相矛盾的:
「虽然他们并不属于扎什伦布寺」, 班禪跟札什倫布寺連在一起基本是從班禪四世才開始的。札什倫布寺是根敦朱巴建於1447年, 班禪一世及二世 (克珠傑 1385–1438, 索南卻朗1438–1505) 一個早就死了, 另一人正好好當他甘丹寺主持。
「罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者后来被承认为班禅四世」
如果你那有名學者有下功夫的話, 他不會犯這種錯誤。達賴封號是追封了一世及二世達賴, 因為是達賴三世才明確封號的; 而班禪則是追封了三位, 因為是班禪四世才開始擁有封號的。所以罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者, 應該是班禅五世。如果他連如此基本的東西都鬧不清, 我不相信他別的事情能有多高明。依我說, 頂多是能愚弄比他更蠢更無知的人而已。
班禪四世其實在確立達賴四世及五世時, 特別是五世的擁立出了大力。為什麼? 因為達賴四世突然在登位五年就在27歲之齡暴斃!!! 班禪不但是精於佛學, 而且也是個大政治家。是他一手策劃與固始汗及其後與清廷連絡以讓格魯派與其他派別抗衡的。如前述, 他當時64歲, 達賴五世才17歲。與其說是達賴給札什倫布寺給了他老師, 不很可能是你有名學者說的「留顏面」, 年輕的達賴根本別無選擇, 又或他欠了班禪大人情? 所以並不是如所謂的有自上而下的誰給誰什麼封號或寺, 而是誰比較大腕而已?
談一些自己不熟悉的文化歷史, 卻不去博覽全觀有關的政治全局背景, 人云亦云的道聽途說當專家, 成嗎? Bodong Choklay Namgyel的网页好多 不信你GOOGLE一下
我是用google的呀, 找不到中文的..
我最大的疑問是 (布敦)却雷南杰
Bodong是不是布敦, 因為我只查到 卻雷南杰,
而他父親跟他自己是拜在布敦門下.
那是台灣一個介紹西藏唐卡的網頁. 唐卡嘛當然是畫他們古代聖賢人物.
他那原文說, 是跟達賴一世同時期的人, 我估計我是找對的了,
但就是差了布敦兩字, 不知是否是像老師, 大德, 上人那類的尊稱.
[ 本帖最后由 ltbriar 于 2008-6-9 07:25 编辑 ] >>现在的班禅是假的等等,
他達賴自己也是假的, 我就在那網上回了,
他自己是轉世靈童而來的, 現在說將來不轉世了, 那不是說明轉世這事情是騙人嗎?
那他本身就是假的, 還有, 他一家九兄弟姐妹, 其中三個哥哥, 他自己, 加他弟弟, 全都活佛
有沒有搞錯, 那當年怎搞出找靈童什麼門外有樹有白馬, 這樣那樣
之前三個, 家長全都演練充足了嘛, 怎麼藏人不用腦想想, 怎會又落他家呢?
比當年太子黨更厲害嘛, 他弟弟當了活佛還還了俗, 不是騙人的是什麼?
要是我當了靈童, 長點腦子的都趕快跑, 不跑就當政治傀儡
不當傀儡也可能沒命. 所以我是相信那被點的, 現在很幸運, 可以當回一般小屁孩.
可能還在談戀愛了呢. 凤凰卫视的一位评论员曾经说过：“dl希望西藏实现自治，可西藏现在已经是中国的一个民族自治区了啊，而且现在西藏的领导也都是藏人啊，凭什么非要你dl来实现自治呢？”
——这么浅显的道理，除非脑残，否则怎么会不明白？ LZ太葱白你叻....
加油咯....
坚定不移地顶... 希望国外能有更多的这样的文章出现 以前对西藏真的不了解， 读了楼主的文章，知道了很多。谢谢楼主！也让我们长了知识！ 我也是一面翻, 一面長見識,
其實我也不知道那麼多. 現炒現賣, 夠新鮮:lol 原帖由 冰雪彩虹 于 2008-6-9 08:13 发表 http://bbs.m4.cn/images/common/back.gif
凤凰卫视的一位评论员曾经说过：“dl希望西藏实现自治，可西藏现在已经是中国的一个民族自治区了啊，而且现在西藏的领导也都是藏人啊，凭什么非要你dl来实现自治呢？”
——这么浅显的道理，除非脑残，否则怎么会不明白？ ...
哎 有些人就是脑残啊 被一群流氓 小混混 忽悠了 西方那帮家伙看不得别人给中国说好话 dl本身就是被反华势力利用或利用国外反华资源来进行政治阴谋的家伙...