【08.11.24 纽约时报】社论: 英国刚刚出卖了西藏？

rlsrls08

【原文标题】Did Britain Just Sell Tibet?
【地址】http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/opinion/25barnett.html
【来源】纽约时报 New York Times
【翻译】rlsrls08
【原文】

Op-Ed Contributor

Did Britain Just Sell Tibet?

By ROBERT BARNETT

Published: November 24, 2008

THE financial crisis is going to do more than increase unemployment, bankruptcy and homelessness. It is also likely to reshape international alignments, sometimes in ways that we would not expect.

As Western powers struggle with the huge scale of the measures needed to revive their economies, they have turned increasingly to China. Last month, for example, Gordon Brown, the British prime minister, asked China to give money to the International Monetary Fund, in return for which Beijing would expect an increase in its voting share.

Now there is speculation that a trade-off for this arrangement involved a major shift in the British position on Tibet, whose leading representatives in exile this weekend called on their leader, the Dalai Lama, to stop sending envoys to Beijing — bringing the faltering talks between China and the exiles to a standstill.

The exiles’ decision followed an announcement on Oct. 29 by David Miliband, the British foreign secretary, that after almost a century of recognizing Tibet as an autonomous entity, Britain had changed its mind. Mr.Miliband said that Britain had decided to recognize Tibet as part of the People’s Republic of China. He even apologized that Britain had not done so earlier.

Until that day, the British had described Tibet as autonomous, with China having a “special position” there. This formula did not endorse the Tibetan claim to independence. But it meant that in the British view China’s control over Tibet was limited to a condition once known as suzerainty, somewhat similar to administering a protectorate. Britain, alone among major powers, had exchanged official agreements with the Tibetan government before the Chinese takeover in1951, so it could scarcely have said otherwise unless it was to vitiate those agreements.
After the People’s Republic of China joined the United Nations in 1971, British politicians refrained from referring to their country’s recognition of Tibet’s autonomy to avoid embarrassing Beijing. But that didn’t make it less significant. It remained the silent but enduring legal basis for 30 years of talks between the Dalai Lama and Beijing, in which the Tibetans have called only for autonomy and not independence — a position that a conference of Tibetan exile sin India reaffirmed on Saturday.

Mr. Miliband described the British position as an anachronism and a colonial legacy. It certainly emerged out of a shabby episode in colonial history, Francis Younghusband’s cavalier invasion of Tibet in 1903. But the British description of Tibet’s status in the era before the modern nation-state was more finely tuned than the versions claimed by Beijing or many exiles, and it was close to the findings of most historians.
Britain’s change of heart risks tearing up a historical record that frames the international order and could provide the basis for resolving China’s dispute with Tibet. The British government may have thought the issue of no significance to Britain’s current national interests and so did not submit it to public debate. But the decision has wider implications. India’s claim to a part of its northeast territories, for example, is largely based on the same agreements — notes exchanged during the Simla convention of 1914, which set the boundary between India and Tibet — that the British appear to have just discarded. That may seem minor to London, but it was over those same documents that a major war between India and China was fought in 1962, as well as a smaller conflict in 1987.

The British concession to China last month was buried within a public statement calling on Beijing to grant autonomy in Tibet, leading some to accuse the British government of hypocrisy. It is more worrying if it was a miscalculation. The statement was released two days before the Dalai Lama’s envoys began the eighth round of talks with Beijing on their longstanding request for greater autonomy, apparently because the British believed — or had been told — that their giveaway to Beijing would relax the atmosphere and so encourage China to make concessions to the Dalai Lama.

The result was the opposite. On Nov. 10, China issued a damning attack on the exile leader, saying his autonomy plan amounted to ethnic cleansing, disguised independence and the reintroduction of serfdom and theocracy. The only thing that China will henceforth discuss with the exiles is the Dalai Lama’s personal status, meaning roughly which luxury residence he can retire to in Beijing.

The official press in China has gleefully attributed European concessions on Tibet to the financial crisis. “Of course these European countries are at this time not collectively changing their tune because their conscience has gotten the better of them,” announced The International Herald Leader, a government-owned paper in Beijing, on Nov. 7. It added that the financial crisis “has made it impossible for them not to consider the ‘cost problem’ in continuing to ‘aid Tibetan independence’ and anger China. After all, compared to the Dalai, to as quickly as possible pull China onto Europe’s rescue boat is even more important and urgent.”

Britain’s concession could be China’s most significant achievement on Tibet since American support for Tibetan guerillas was ended before Nixon’s visit to Beijing. Including China in global decision-making is welcome, but Western powers should not rewrite history to get support in the financial crisis. It may be more than banks and failed mortgages that are sold off cheap in the rush to shore up ailing economies.

RobertBarnett, the director of the Modern Tibetan Studies Program atColumbia, is the author of “Lhasa: Streets With Memories.”

[ 本帖最后由 rlsrls08 于 2008-11-26 10:11 编辑 ]

rlsrls08

【译文】

罗伯特巴尼特

发布日期： 2008年11月24号

金融危机不仅带来失业增加，破产和无家可归，还可能以我们意想不到的方式，重塑国际队列。

由于西方列强必须挣扎着以巨大规模的行动来振兴本国经济，他们越来越多地转向中国。例如上个月，英国首相布朗要求中国提供资金给国际货币基金组织(IMF)，作为交换，北京将得到英国更多的投票支持。

现在有人在猜测这一涉及英国对西藏的立场的重大转变的权衡。西藏主要代表们在本周末要求他们的领袖达赖喇嘛停止派遣特使到北京，使中国和西藏流亡政府之间摇摇欲坠的会谈陷于停顿。

流亡者乃是在10月29日英国外交大臣米利班德发表讲话之后作出决定的。米利先生说，英国近一个世纪一直承认西藏是一个独立的实体，但现在已改变了主意。 英国已决定承认西藏是中华人民共和国的一部分。他甚至为英国没有尽早这样做表示道歉。

这一天之前，英国一直把西藏描述为一个自治的区域，只是中国在那里具有“特殊地位”。这一惯用说法并不代表赞同西藏要求独立。 但意味着英国认为中国在西藏的控制限于所知的宗主权，有些类似(强国对弱国的)保护管理。 英国作为几个大国之一，在1951年中国接管西藏之前，与西藏政府交换了正式协议，所以它不能否定自己，除非违背这些协议。

在1971年中华人民共和国加入联合国之后，英国政客避免提及他们的国家承认西藏的自治，以避免使得北京不安。 但是，这仍然意味深长。 它仍旧是30年来达赖喇嘛和北京之间谈判的无声而又持久的法律基础。藏人要求自治而不是独立，本周六在印度举行的西藏流亡者大会重申了这一立场。

米利先生描述了英国的立场是一个时代错误，和殖民地政府遗留下来的。 这显然暴露了殖民地历史中一个卑鄙的事件，即1903年弗朗西斯扬哈斯本傲慢地入侵了西藏。 但英国对西藏那个时代的描述，跟北京或者许多流亡者的版本相比，经过了精心的调整，但接近大多数历史学家的调查结果。

英国的改变主意冒着撕裂历史记录的风险，该历史记录形成了(目前的)国际秩序，和可以提供解决中国同西藏的争端的基础。 英国政府可能认为这对英国目前的国家利益没有什么大不了的，因此没有提交给公众辩论。 但该决定具有广泛的影响。 例如，印度声称其东北部领土是印度的一部分，主要是基于同一协定，即1914年的西姆拉公约，其规定了印度和西藏的边界。 而英国似乎刚才丢弃了这块土地。伦敦可能不看重这些，但这些文件是1962年中国和印度之间一场较大的战争，以及1987年一个较小的冲突的起因。

上个月英国对中国的让步被淹没在一个要求北京给予西藏自治的公开声明中，一些人指责英国政府伪善。 如果这是一个错误，那将更令人担忧。 该声明发表前两天，达赖喇嘛的特使开始了第八轮与北京的会谈，继续他们要求更大的自治权的长期诉求。显然英国认为-或者被告知-其赠送给北京的礼物(指承认西藏是中国的一部分)将会放松(会谈)气氛，及鼓励中国对达赖喇嘛作出让步。

其结果是相反的。 11月10日，中国发表了一份攻击流亡领袖的声明，谴责他的自治计划相当于种族清洗，变相独立，恢复农奴制和政教合一。 中国今后跟流亡者唯一可以讨论的是达赖喇嘛的个人地位，意思是他退休后可以住在北京的豪华居所里头。

中国的官方媒体兴高采烈地把欧洲对西藏问题的让步归咎于财政危机。 11月7日国际先驱导报说:“当然，这些欧洲国家此时集体改口并不是良心发现，金融危机使他们不得不考虑继续援助西藏独立和激怒中国的成本问题。 毕竟，相对于达赖，尽快把中国拉上欧洲的救援艇更为重要和紧迫。”  国际先驱导报是一家中国政府全资拥有，设在北京的报纸。

自从尼克松访问北京，美国停止支持西藏游击队之后，英国的让步也许是中国在西藏问题上最显著的成就。 中国被欢迎参加全球决策，但西方大国不应该改写历史，以获取金融危机时的支持。 这可能比为了急于顽强生病的经济，廉价出售银行和坏帐更严重。


本文作者罗伯特巴尼特是哥伦比亚大学"现代藏学研究计划"主任，“拉萨：记忆中的街道”一书的作者


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译者注:国际先驱导报: 英国缘何在“西藏问题”上改口
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4bccaa320100bthg.html

rlsrls08

14.November 25, 2008 8:05 am

It constantly amazed me that the western intellectuals seem to have a such a trouble of letting go the notion that they, and them alone, have the right to make judgements on the history of another nation.

The sordid history of Britain in Tibet, and to large part China, makes British position on Tibet irrelevant to anyone other than those with outgrown self-importance. The glee and shrug-off from the Chinese in reaction to British's changing position is the best indication how far the west has fallen in the eyes of Chinese.

How could Britain sell Tibet when Britain never had it? Hmm, I got it. In the eyes of western intellectuals, the white nations owned everything in the world, they are the ultimate judge of everything else. Probably why this author should stay in ivory tower.

— Yalin, Hayward, Calif.

Recommend Recommended by 84 Readers

我不断地惊叹于西方的知识分子似乎难以放弃一个概念，就是他们，也只有他们，有权利判断另一个民族的历史。

英国在西藏和中国其他地区的肮脏的历史，使得英国在西藏问题上毫无立场可言，除非他们能够不再妄自尊大。中国人对英国改变立场的反应--高兴和耸耸肩--最好的说明了在中国人眼中，西方社会已经多么堕落。

如果英国从来不曾拥有过西藏，英国怎么能出售西藏呢? 嗯，我明白了。在西方知识分子的眼中，白人国家拥有世界上的一切，他们是一切的最终裁判员。也许这个笔者应生活在象牙塔中。

-加利福尼亚州的Yalin

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30.November 25, 2008 8:05 am

The romantic notion of the Dalai Lama as international superstar aside, China has as strong a claim to Tibet as the USA does to Hawaii or Britain to Northern Ireland.

Time to put aside fatuous moralizing and the hypocritical Western sense of superiority on his issue - Tibet is part of China.

— Norm McDougall, Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada

Recommend Recommended by 67 Readers

达赖喇嘛作为国际巨星这一浪漫的概念之外，中国对西藏的所有权相当于美国对夏威夷或英国对北爱尔兰的所有权。

现在是搁置昏庸说教和虚伪的西方优越感的时候了--西藏是中国的一部分。

-加拿大安大略省的Norm McDougall

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21.November 25, 2008 8:05 am

Sometimes one couldn't help but wonder whether these academics are really in touch with the real world. They seem still clinging on their make-believe version of western ideologies and ignore the important issues – how to move forward so that it is the best for the Tibetans, inside and outside China.
Mr. Barnett is giving Britain too much credit. The Chinese government or the Chinese people feel very strongly about Tibet and Taiwan; they really can careless how the Western world thinks.
These two regions can never and will never be separated from China and gain their full independence, period.
Last week, Japan’s Prime Minister Aso has also urged Mr. Hu to contribute to the IMF in Lima during the APEC meeting. Hu smiled and acknowledged. If the Chinese decide to give money to IMF, that is not because of the concession made by anyone over Tibet, especially not from the British.
As for the argument of “rewriting history”, which version of history does Mr. Barnett was referring to? The western-scholar version perhaps?

— verainparis, Paris and Califiornia

Recommend Recommended by 57 Readers

有时候不能不怀疑这些学者是否真正接触真实的世界。他们似乎仍紧握不放他们虚幻的西方意识形态，忽视了重要的问题-如何为了中国境内和境外的藏人的利益而向前发展。

作者巴内特先生给了英国太多表扬。中国政府和中国人民对西藏和台湾有着强烈的感情，他们真的可以不在乎西方世界的想法。这两个地区永远不能，也不会从中国分离出去，并获得完全独立。 就这样，没什么好说的。

上周在利马举行的亚太经合组织会议上，日本首相麻生太郎还敦促胡锦涛先生捐助国际货币基金组织。胡锦涛微笑着听到了。如果中国决定把钱交给国际货币基金组织，这不是因为任何人在西藏问题上作出让步，更别提英国。

至于“改写历史”的说法 ，作者指的是哪个版本的历史？也许是西方学者的版本？

-巴黎和加州的verainparis

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37.November 25, 2008 8:21 am

Tibet is not ours to either sell or save. The hubris of thinking that we have a significant role in the fate of a dispute on the other side of the world, in a place bordered by countries that each have a billion people, is staggering.

— Scott Robinson, West Virginia

Recommend Recommended by 42 Readers

西藏不是我们的，我们无权出售或保留。认为我们在世界的另一边，具有10亿人口的两个国家的争端中具有重要的角色，这一傲慢的想法让人难以相信。

- 西弗吉尼亚州的斯科特罗宾逊

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12.November 25, 2008 7:48 am

The whole Tibet issue is overblown and used to bully China by Western Governments. It also used by the population of these countries fearful of Chinese industrial strength. China itself is no saint. Therefore, Brits see no problem in using (or selling as per author) Tibet to get some cheap bucks from China.

— kamraj, kampuri

Recommend Recommended by 37 Readers

整个西藏问题被西方国家政府过分渲染和用来胁迫中国。同样也被这些国家某些担心中国工业实力的人利用了。中国自身不完美。因此，英国人认为为了从中国获取一些廉价的钱，利用（或出售，用作者的话说）西藏不是什么问题。

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24.November 25, 2008 8:05 am

Due to the recent financial upheavals, it is time for the United States to repay its vast debt to The People's Republic of China. I suggest we give them Texas as of January 21st, just make sure G W Bush is in residence at the time of transfer and if Karl Rove and Dick Cheney could be on the ranch, that would be fine too.

— kamachanda, Rational America

Recommend Recommended by 36 Readers

由于最近的金融动荡，现在该是美国向中华人民共和国偿还庞大的债务的时候了。我建议1月21日我们把得克萨斯州赔给他们，请务必确定交接的时候布什总统住在那里，如果卡尔罗夫和切尼那时也在布什的农场也不错。(译者注: 布什总统的私人农场在德克萨斯州。)

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6.November 25, 2008 7:48 am

British rewriting history? It sounds like they simply shed another one of the colonial legacies of the British Empire of, oh was it 19th century?

— Kirk Chen, Saratoga, Calif.

Recommend Recommended by 33 Readers

英国改写历史？听起来好像他们才摆脱另一个大英帝国的殖民遗产而已，哦，那不是19世纪的事情吗？

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2.November 25, 2008 7:48 am

As one who has lived in India, traveled in Tibet, and managed an oral history project in the Tibetan refugee community in India, I find your insight into the likely behind-the-scenes political machinations of the British government to be terribly and irretrievably saddening. I pray that you are wrong, but suppose that you are right. I have long felt that Tibet's destiny is somehow directly tied to our planet's destiny and our civilization's fate. If this is anything like a mortal blow to hopes for the survival of Tibet's culture and the Tibetan people who so humbly and sincerely manifest the wisdom of their faith, then we have just added an immeasurably heavy weight to the ball and chain we're already dragging into this frightening century. And for what? Some numbers in some computers in some banks? Lord have mercy.

— Hillel Natanson, St. Paul, Minn.

  Recommended by 30 Readers

我曾经生活在印度，去过西藏旅游，和在印度西藏难民社区管理过一个口述历史项目，我觉得你洞察了英国政府的幕后政治阴谋，并感到可怕地和不可逆转地痛心。我祈祷你错了，但猜想你是正确的。我一直认为，西藏的命运直接关系到我们这个星球的命运和我们文明的命运。如果这对保存西藏文化，和西藏人民的虚心真诚表现智慧的希望是一个致命的打击，那么我们刚才在我们已经拖曳到这个可怕的世纪的球和链子上加了重物。为了什么？银行的计算机上头的数字？上帝伶悯。

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22.November 25, 2008 8:05 am

Did you just ignore the entire history of Sino-British relations? That said, it's not surprising that England just did that. After all, the British Empire has royally screwed up every country it has touched in the name of Empire.

— A. T., Hong Kong

Recommend Recommended by 29 Readers

你是否忽视了整个中英关系的历史？也就是说，英格兰这么做毫不奇怪。毕竟，大英帝国已经高贵地毁坏了每一个它以帝国名义触及的国家。

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46.November 25, 2008 10:10 am

Totally agree with Scott Robinson of West Virginia.

This is about what two independent country's (China and UK's) view on a Chinese province (Tibet TAR) by a professor in a fourth country (US).

It's just as important as a German professor in Native American Studies commenting on the United States and Israel's agreement on Dakota Indians. Who cares??? It's none of the German's business.

Even more pathetic are the South Asian Indians supportiing the American professor. They are even further removed. Does anyone care what Somali pirates think about a German professor's view of Dakota Indians. Of course not.

The only other revelation of this professor is that Money buys Power and Influence in Geo-politics. Did the American professor just figure that out?? Give him an award!!

— ThomasW, California

我完全同意西弗吉尼亚州的斯科特罗宾逊的评论。

这是关于两个独立的国家（中国和英国）对于中国的一个省（西藏自治区）的观点，由第四个国家（美国）的一个教授来讲述。

这跟一个研究美国原住民的德国教授来评论美国和以色列签订的关于南达科他州印第安人的协议同等重要。谁在乎呢 ？ ？这跟德国没有关系。

更可悲的是南亚的印度人支持美国教授。他们甚至进一步搬离那里。有人在乎索马里海盗怎么看一个德国教授对达科他州印第安人的观点吗? 当然没有。

教授给出的唯一启示是在地缘政治中金钱购买权力和影响力。难道美国教授才弄明白这点吗？ ？应该给他颁发一个奖！

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43.November 25, 2008 10:01 am

Though I am not chinese, and am not a fan of the chines govt, I have to agree with
#14 (Yalin) that the article reeks of overweening arrogance. Britain is a small island with delusions of grandeur-why is Tibet their's to sell or sell out ? The damage inflicted by the vanity and ignorance of british administrators and intellectuals in the past century caused deep wounds around the world that have not healed. They have no moral currency except in new age bastions who denizens
wring hands about the tibetans but wouldn't spare a thought for, say, (take your pick) a million congolese victims in the last decade.
Better stick to the James Bond fantasy version of british virility. That's something that the chinese and indians and multitudes of others who have suffered under the british can wholeheartedly enjoy.
— rv, riverhead

尽管我不是中国人，也不喜欢中国政府，但我必须同意14楼Yalin的观点(译者注:即翻译的第一条留言，获得最多人支持) ，这一文章散发着过分的嚣张气焰。英国是一个幻想伟大的小岛屿，为什么西藏是他们的，由他们来出售或卖完？在过去一个世纪中，虚荣和无知的英国领导和知识分子所造成的破坏，留给全世界深深的创伤还没有愈合。他们没有道义上的货币，只有新时代的战斗堡垒，里头居住着关于藏人的写手。但(英国)想都不会去想在过去十年中100万刚果受害者。
还是继续你们的詹姆式邦德007版本的英国雄风吧。这是中国人，印度人，和其他众多遭受了英国统治的人才可以全心全意地享受的。

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71.November 25, 2008 11:20 am

To my arrogant and ignorant western friends,

Tibet culture has been a part of Chinese culture for centuries.

Tibet has been a part of Chinese long before US was founded.

Dalai Lama is not the sole leader in Tibetan Buddhism, nor he is the only political leader.

99% of the commentators above need to go back to read history books. Ignorance will not help build a peaceful world. Wars in Iraq, religious conflicts, wars in other parts of the world are 100% contributed to such ignorance and lack of historic knowledge in the minds of western people.

— GlobalCitizen, Chicago

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给傲慢和无知的西方朋友们，

几个世纪以来西藏文化一直是中国文化的一部分。
西藏一直是中国的一部分，早在美国成立前。
达赖喇嘛不是唯一的藏传佛教领袖，也不是唯一的政治领袖。
99%以上的留言者需要回去读历史书籍。无知对建立一个和平的世界毫无帮助。伊拉克战争，宗教冲突，世界其他地方的战争100%是由这些愚昧和头脑缺乏历史知识的西方人民发起的。

-芝加哥的GlobalCitizen


----------------------


115. November 25, 2008 2:19 pm

Reader #24 is of course correct that the US should relinquish its claims to Texas. But it should be returned to Mexico, its rightful owner, not given to China. While we're at it, it's also high time to pay the Russians full value for Alaska, and as a gesture of good will we ought to send them Sarah Palin (in a chocolate mousse cake, perhaps) as a down payment.

— Stafford Smith, Seattle

24楼关于美国应该放弃德州的留言当然是正确的，但是应该还给其合法拥有者墨西哥，而不是给中国。既然我们说到这儿了，我们也应该把阿拉斯加归还给俄罗斯，作为善意，我们还应该给他们莎拉帕林（或许放在巧克力慕斯蛋糕上）作为首期付款。

- 西雅图的Stafford Smith


----------------------

注: 该文一共收到147条读者留言，纽约时报网站目前已经关闭读者留言。

[ 本帖最后由 rlsrls08 于 2008-11-26 10:25 编辑 ]

sam712

楼主也不用安慰我们了~能看到这种留言很高兴可我们都知道这些都是少数中的少数~

非常支持这句话“99%以上的留言者需要回去读历史书籍。无知对建立一个和平的世界毫无帮助。伊拉克战争，宗教冲突，世界其他地方的战争100%是由这些愚昧和头脑缺乏历史知识的西方人民发起的。”

无聊人

西藏又不是英国的他有什么权利出卖西藏呢？　无耻的英国人．　西方那些官员都是为了利益也非常容易改变想法．　有点像夏天的天气一样

西拿

让我感到痛心的是，像纽约时报这样的报纸居然可耻的发表这样的文章，看了这样的纽约时报我毫不怀疑当年美国的媒体是如何有力的为奴隶制度进行辩护了。

朝露晨光

好吗，西方媒体在2008年，在中国人面前跳的脱衣舞，够多了。
足够中国人把他们看个透彻，然后恶心个够了。

sam712

原帖由 西拿 于 2008-11-26 12:26 发表
让我感到痛心的是，像纽约时报这样的报纸居然可耻的发表这样的文章，看了这样的纽约时报我毫不怀疑当年美国的媒体是如何有力的为奴隶制度进行辩护了。 ...

我很佩服美国的"精英"为了维护美国霸权不惜扭曲自己的逻辑使用"修饰性"的语言来向老百姓灌输~他们是如此的冠冕堂皇理直气壮~

墨涵

To my arrogant and ignorant western friends,

Tibet culture has been a part of Chinese culture for centuries.

Tibet has been a part of Chinese long before US was founded.

Dalai Lama is not the sole leader in Tibetan Buddhism, nor he is the only political leader.

99% of the commentators above need to go back to read history books. Ignorance will not help build a peaceful world. Wars in Iraq, religious conflicts, wars in other parts of the world are 100% contributed to such ignorance and lack of historic knowledge in the minds of western people.

— GlobalCitizen, Chicago

RecommendedRecommended by 29 Readers

给傲慢和无知的西方朋友们，

几个世纪以来西藏文化一直是中国文化的一部分。
西藏一直是中国的一部分，早在美国成立前。
达赖喇嘛不是唯一的藏传佛教领袖，也不是唯一的政治领袖。
99%以上的留言者需要回去读历史书籍。无知对建立一个和平的世界毫无帮助。伊拉克战争，宗教冲突，世界其他地方的战争100%是由这些愚昧和头脑缺乏历史知识的西方人民发起的。

-芝加哥的GlobalCitizen

----------------------------------------------------------------
说的好！极好。

中华的轮回

怎么讲呢？历史产生了文化，催发文明进化
中国几千年历史形成了当前的中华文明，历史教会了我们许多：美国类似于中国历史上的秦王朝（强大的武力和好战），但是很短暂；
没有悠久的历史无法让人类了解哪怕是一部分真理，学习和融合以利于自身的进化发展，而不是征服和消灭其他文明的一无所获
至少中华文明明悟了这一点，才能在历史的螺旋线中延续下来，这是其调节自身生存的法则，以确保其文明不至于悲哀的消失和灭亡。
现代人发明了“软实力”这一名词，但又很偏激，侧重于宣扬并不完美的自身而不是学习和融合，有高高在上的传教士的味道，缺少了谦逊这一实现目的的简单的手段。西方民主的世界性传导正是如此，其自身并不完美，但又不善于通过学习融合其他文明的优异之处，一味的迫使外界全盘接受，其结果必然是失败。
中国人知道自己想要的是什么，明白自己是谁，在不断的学习和融合西方文明，过程艰难但成功性非常高，这是历史的准则，文明生存的基石。

HongKongCCY

我倒想看看其他的評論～
先感謝樓主的辛苦翻譯！

rlsrls08

原帖由 HongKongCCY 于 2008-11-27 03:48 发表
我倒想看看其他的評論～
先感謝樓主的辛苦翻譯！

太多留言了，没那么多时间翻译，先找几个吧

147. November 25, 2008 5:37 pm

It is sad that Britain has failed the Tibetans again. The oppressive Chinese rule in Tibet is causing its unique culture to disappear. The Han Chinese constitute 97 percent of modern day China so there is little room for diversity in that country. The Han Chinese government keeps talking about the humiliation that China has suffered over the centuries. What about the humiliation that it is inflicting on the minorities in China. In Xinjian muslims are not allowed to keep beards! People are paraded in open trucks and executed in public! Modern China is an empire that has grown with the connivance of the West. We cannot shirk our responsibilities just because they may not be 'commercially viable' at this point. Who was it, that encouraged the industrialization of China? Who was it that led China to have whatever weapons it has today?

These same policies of the West have today made China the number one threat to democratic polity across the globe. If Tibet dies, it will be a litmus test for our survival too! We must send a clear signal to China. We must let them know that freedom and democracy will be defended across the globe. This is not the time to give in. This is the time to rally the troops and stand up for what we believe in.

— James Baker, Toronto, Canada

Recommended by 2 Readers

可悲的是，英国又一次背叛了藏人。中国在西藏的残暴统治造成了其独特文化的消失。汉族构成97%的现代中国，因此在中国没有多元化的余地。汉族中国政府一直在谈论中国遭受了数百年的屈辱。那么对中国少数民族的羞辱呢? 在新疆穆斯林不允许留胡子！人们被押在车上游街和公开枪决！近代中国在西方的纵容下成为了一个帝国。我们不能推卸我们的责任仅仅因为没"'商业上可行的"方法。是谁鼓励了中国工业化？谁导致了中国具有今天的武器？

西方如今同样的政策使得中国成为全球各地民主政体的头号威胁。如果西藏死了，这将也是一个对我们生存的考验！我们必须向中国发出一个明确的信号。我们必须让他们知道世界各地将会捍卫自由和民主。现在不是让步的时候，这是集结部队和站起来保卫我们所相信的时候。

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146. November 25, 2008 5:37 pm

So once upon a time, the Chinese felt humiliated by the West and are today sensitive to criticisms from same about how they do things. So do the Chinese now feel that they in turn are entitled to try to humiliate someone else, like the Tibetans? Is that how it works? Once you've been humiliated you somehow have the moral authority to turn around and do it to someone else?

In recommendations following its review of China earlier this month, the U.N. Committee Against Torture said Beijing also needed to fully investigate all deaths in state custody and provide more information about how it treats detainees.

"The committee remains deeply concerned about the continued allegations, corroborated by numerous Chinese legal sources, of routine and widespread use of torture and ill-treatment of suspects in police custody, especially to extract confessions for information to be used in criminal proceedings," it said.

— CommonSense, Canada La
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers

曾经中国受到了来自西方的羞辱，今天中国对来自西方的批评非常敏感。所以，现在的中国人是不是认为该轮到他们来羞辱别人，比如西藏人了？是这么回事吗？一旦你被羞辱你就有道德权威转过身去羞辱别人？

在本月初联合国禁止酷刑委员会对中国进行审查后建议说，北京还需要充分调查被拘留者的所有死亡案例和提供更多关于对待被拘留者的资料。

“委员会依然深切关注继续指控，证实了许多中国的法律来源，例行的和广泛使用酷刑和虐待被警察拘留的嫌疑犯，尤其是在刑事诉讼中使用逼供 ”它说。
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145.November 25, 2008 5:37 pm

In my twenty seven years on this planet one lesson [i am a kashmiri hindu] that is going to remain with me till my end is that, if you want justice you should either have gold [oil, minerals, etc] or guns. Minus these, you will always be expendable.
Witness the difference between the plight of Palestinians and Tibetans; the former get millions of dollars and envoys, and the latter are facing extinction.

— Trilok, New York

我是一个印度克什米尔教徒。在我二十七年的人生中，并且直到死亡都有效的一个教训就是，如果你想得到公平您应该有黄金[石油，矿产等]或枪。没有这些，你将永远是牺牲品。见证一下巴勒斯坦人和藏人之间的差异吧，前者获得数百万美元和特使，而后者正面临灭绝的危险。

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144. November 25, 2008 5:37 pm

Tibet has been part of China for at least 700 years. This is the history. How can anyone re-write history? Is the world history written by British? Dalai Lama is a big liar. He cheated on western people about Tibetan's miserable life. The truth is he was the slave owner. He is the one responseble for the poor life of Tibetans before 1959. His followers today are those Tibetan nobles.He is using religion to cover his political goals.

— A H, Canada
Recommend Recommended by 11 Readers

至少700年来西藏一直是中国的一部分。这是历史。谁能重写历史？世界历史是英国人写的吗？达赖喇嘛是一个大骗子。他向西方人谎称藏人的悲惨生活。事实上他是个奴隶主。他对1959年前藏人的贫穷负有责任。他现在的追随者都是西藏的贵族.他就是利用宗教来达到他的政治目标。

[ 本帖最后由 rlsrls08 于 2008-11-27 07:09 编辑 ]

64396170

在新疆穆斯林不允许留胡子！.........................


没有吧？？？

HongKongCCY

押上車上遊街？要問大陸同胞，真的假的啊？


一旦你被羞辱你就有道德权威转过身去羞辱别人？
============================
居然將西方人的侵略（他國），和中國處理國內事務混作一談，何況在做的是建設西藏。

臭豆腐

英国有什么权利出卖西藏？如果中国承认所谓的麦克马洪线那才叫出卖西藏吧，西藏与英国从来就不是一起的，英国又有什么资格出卖？

luyi99

美媒借批英国“出卖西藏”为“藏独”造势
http://world.huanqiu.com/roll/2008-11/296036.html

血性

原帖由 64396170 于 2008-11-27 08:02 发表
在新疆穆斯林不允许留胡子！.........................


没有吧？？？

同问  太可笑  我看新疆老爷爷 胡子留的蛮HIGH 啊

蔚蓝矢车菊

原帖由 rlsrls08 于 2008-11-27 06:41 发表
在新疆穆斯林不允许留胡子！人们被押在车上游街和公开枪决！

实在是太可笑了。。。写这个的人是外星人吧

Free_Corsica

外国人很不了解中国

国际先驱导报是一家中国政府全资拥有，设在北京的报纸。

中国报纸绝大部分都是中国政府全资拥有，所谓的国营
但并不代表，报纸登的就等于是中央政府的意思

rlsrls08

英国外交部就“纽约时报社论：英国刚刚出卖了西藏？”一文的回复

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/opinion/l02tibet.html

英国对西藏，自治和权利的立场

发布日期： 2008年12月1号

相关内容-社论：英国刚刚出卖了西藏？ （2008年11月25号）
http://bbs.m4.cn/thread-119794-1-3.html

罗伯特巴内特（译者注：上文作者）指责英国政府改写了西藏的历史，我们认为，这一指控是不公平的。

在美国，英国和其他地方的许多人都同意我们的看法，即西藏的人权状况是不可接受的。 首相戈登布朗将继续坦白的告诉中国领导人这一点。

找到一个长期解决西藏问题的办法是为了未来，而不是过去。 达赖喇嘛说，他希望西藏在中国范围内自治，而不是独立。 我们更新了我们的立场，因为我们认为这是条向前进的正确道路。 这意味着我们认为西藏是中国的一部分。 这并不意味着我们会停止支持自治与人权：很显然，我们不会。

对于最近北京举行的西藏会谈需要取得进展，我们的发言是明确的。这就是为什么我们在会议开始前发布（承认西藏是中国的一部分）声明。 现在我们迫切地建议根据达赖喇嘛的特使作出的提议进行会谈。 中国应该以开放的心态研读这些建议。

比尔拉梅尔

国务部长

英国外交部

伦敦， 2008年11月28日