Tibetans Intelligence is far more than Buddism

Stevenyaung

I think the Tibetans are very good and suited  at  singing the european classic musice like what Dorje Tsering did because they live in the high-altitude plateau with very thin air where make them  sing an extreamly high voice with  a deep and grave effect in nature. You know there are lots of Tibetans' names like Dorje Tsering.For example ,One persone named  Dorje Tsering was the former minister of Ministry of Civil Affairs. That Dorjie Tsering I metioned is very prefessional in singing  European Classic Music who got very good music instructions in European Classic Music  from Madam Jiangying.Dorjie Tsering is also very popular in the circles of  European Classic music . Maybe Most of People are not very familiar with Jiangying.But I think every body knows Qian Xuesheng ,the Missle father of China ,who has made very contribution to China's Astronics and airspace Technology. Qian xuesheng is the husband of Madam Jiangying . I also think there are lots of people who are very familiar with Jiang Baili who is a very famous military specialist in the time of Republic of China(ROC) and who  metioned the theory of protracted warfare of anti-Janpanese invassion at first time which is much earlier than the protracted warfare theory that Mao Tsedong created in 1938 . Jiang baili is the father of Jiangying. May major thinking is that The Tibetans' intelligence is far more than Tibetan Buddism and traditional  Tibetan arts.Tibetans progressed very fast since China  opened to the outside world in 1978 .Tibetans will get very progress and step into modernization with other ethnic Chinese together .This can not be realized  without Communist Party ,This cannot be realized if Tibet is still under  the rules of Dala Lama and Tibetan BUddism along. I also ever saw a TV program in which the  exlusive  painter of the 10th Panchen Lama introduced his  new technics of Tibetan paintigs which mainly focused on titles or items in TIbetan Monasteries. He ever made his private paintings' show in the west world and many western people felt very surprised because they never saw this kind of Tibetan paintings before.This Panchen's Painter said the Tibetan arts is the arts which is in the rapid period of developement rather than a living fossil. So TIbetan Buddism will turn into more monasterized and common TIbetans will enjoy more and more new changes in their socity.I firmly believe that the Tibetan culture ,Tibetan arts and their thinkings and intelligences will be fully presented to the whole China and the whole world in the near future apart from Buddism.

Stevenyaung

who can help me make the translation of this article into Chinese？

yang

我能力有限，只能大概看看，翻译不了，真是遗憾。

dorje

I think the Tibetans are very good and suited  at  singing the european classic musice like what Dorje Tsering did because they live in the high-altitude plateau with very thin air where make them  si ...
Stevenyaung 发表于 2009-8-15 14:34

Some good points here. I definitely agree with you on Tibetan culture and Tibetan arts which are getting more and more popular and catching people's attention in the world.However ,I am also wonder,what do you know about Tibetan Buddhism ,I bet you must assume Tibetan Buddhism is evil and dangerous,associating them with secret societies and Satanism,right? Hoho~not only you but also most of Han-Chinese people in mainland China have the same idea. I think it's wrong to stereotype Tibetan Buddhists as extremists and conservatives.

Ummm....anyway,I don't want to make it sounds like something serious, but something worth thinking about. Maybe my message  wasn't clear, you were expected to read some Tibetan books on history and should know what really happened in Tibetan of the past hundred years .
By the way ,promoting ethnic and social harmony in China is most Tibetans' wishes.

音乐盒

楼主此文原回复在dorje的索朗扎西 - 姑娘我爱你帖子内，现单独成帖。试翻译如下：

我觉得藏人很擅长和适合演唱欧洲古典歌剧，正如多吉次仁（藏族男高音歌唱家，现任西藏大学声乐老师，访谈录）所做的。因为他们生活在空气非常稀薄的高原，这让他们天生声音高亢，浑厚。

藏人有很多都叫多吉次仁的。还有一位多吉次仁（又作多吉才让）是原民政部部长。

我说的这位多吉次仁是专攻演唱欧洲古典音乐的，他在欧洲古典音乐上得到蒋英女士的很好指点。多吉次仁也在欧洲古典音乐圈内十分有名。也许大部分人都不熟悉蒋英女士。但是我想每个人都认识为中国航天技术做出卓越贡献的中国导弹之父钱学森吧。钱学森是蒋英女士的丈夫。（水立方之前有一个帖子：佳人配才子：钱学森夫人比赵雅芝还要美！！(组图)）

我想很多人也都熟悉蒋百里的，他是中华民国时期一位著名的军事专家，他提出抗日持久战理论（1937）比毛泽东（1938）还要早。蒋百里是蒋英的父亲。

我主要想说的是，藏人的聪明才智远远不止藏传佛教和传统藏族艺术。自中国1978年开放后，藏族发展的很快。藏人十分愿意取得进步，并和其他少数民族一道步入现代化。如果没有共产党，如果仍在达赖喇嘛和藏传佛教的统治下，这是不可能实现的。

我还看过一个电视节目，十世班禅喇嘛的专属画师介绍他在藏族绘画上的新技法，藏族绘画主要用在西藏寺庙题材上。他还曾在西方举办过个人绘画展，许多西方人觉得吃惊因为他们以前从未见过他这种技法的藏族绘画。班禅的画师说，藏族艺术是处在快速发展时期的艺术，而不是一个活化石。

所以，藏传佛教会愈加寺庙化，而普通藏人会乐于见到在他们的社会里产生的越来越多的新变化。我确信，除了佛教外，藏族文化艺术和藏人的思想与智慧在不久的将来会向整个中国和整个世界完全呈现出来。

音乐盒

dorje同学，楼主是以一种积极赞赏并发扬西藏文化的态度来展望的。我不明白，为什么你会作这么狭隘的回复，是否太过敏感？

看“圆明园”这部片子，感触良多，英法烧杀抢掠时竟发现圆中是有英国之前表示友好相赠的洋枪洋炮的，可是皇帝们不识也不屑，不重视科技与文明，清朝终在衰败中灭亡。细想想，如果宗教中一些部分阻碍了它的发展，便应该认识并与时俱进。如果你不但拒绝认识这点，还对所有提出建议的人徒呼喝喝，那么你自己便恰恰成了它的掘墓人了。

看了这几天你在各个帖子里开辟的辩论场，有一些话就算不说相信你自己也可以体会的出。闭目塞听害的是自己和这方土地及人民。还是那句话，自己享受着现代文明的成果，却希望同胞活在落后与愚昧之中，是极端自私。

音乐盒

发多吉次仁的访谈录：

音乐盒

西藏大学多吉次仁教授访谈实录

发布时间: 2009年04月30日 10:47

编者按：4月13日，中国西藏新闻网、腾讯新闻中心“庆祝西藏民主改革50周年”西藏报道组来到西藏大学新校区。就音乐方面的话题采访了西藏大学艺术学院音乐系的多吉次仁教授，以下为访谈实录：

主持人晓虹：各位网友大家好。欢迎大家跟随我们的镜头来到西藏大学的艺术学院。现在出现在我们镜头面前的是多吉次仁教授。我们先请多吉次仁教授作一个自我介绍。谢谢。

多吉次仁：我是西藏大学艺术学院的声乐老师。87年到西北民族学院学习，现在叫西北民大，毕业以后到西藏大学当老师。94年到了空政歌舞团。87年到94年期间一直在西藏大学当老师。92年、93年我参加了中央电视台“青年歌手大奖赛”，那个时候叫“五洲杯”，获得了专业美声的三等奖，之后去了空政歌舞团。

    在空政歌舞团工作期间，我跟声乐教育家蒋英教授学了三年的声乐。经导师推荐参加了在法国马赛举行的第六届国际声乐大赛，在那个比赛中获得男子组第一名。

    当时评委里面有很多的歌唱家和歌剧院的老总。我后来获得了美国科罗拉多歌剧院两年的工作合同。这样我从空政歌舞团直接去的美国。在美国科罗拉多歌剧院唱了两年。

主持人晓虹：在那主要是唱一些什么样的歌？

多吉次仁：刚开始去的时候我外语底子薄，不能说是差，但是薄。所以刚开始非常难。当然他们给了我一些重要的角色。因为他们可能不认为我的英语差，所以把主要男歌手的角色给我了。去的时候唱的第一首歌曲是《罗密欧与朱丽叶》。

主持人晓虹：经典歌剧。

多吉次仁：确实，那是用法语唱的。但是法语我会拼不会说。

主持人晓虹：那您后来是怎么唱出来的？

多吉次仁：练。可以说练得非常艰难。整整这个歌剧耗了我三、四个月的时间。不仅仅是音乐、表演，最重要的是语言。你要知道你要唱什么，你知道这个歌词的含义了以后才可以在舞台上表现。

主持人晓虹：关键是还有感情。

多吉次仁：在舞台上表演，不光是你一个人，还有很多人给你打气。所以你的表现和表演肯定是要到位的。《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这部歌剧我通过努力之后演出的效果还不错。这样陆陆续续他们给了我很多男高音的主要角色。

    在普契尼的《蝴蝶夫人》我演的是平克尔顿。《外套》是吉基耶夫的歌剧，演的是男主角，后面还演了一些其他的像罗迪的歌剧。到2000年我就结束了这个工作。他们也挽留了，但是我想去纽约。因为我的导师和美国很多人都讲你必须要去纽约，你不能在科罗拉多呆一辈子，因为纽约是整个世界的艺术大都会、艺术中心。我就去了艺术家聚集的地方纽约。

    到纽约后我又了一个艺术家学位。在纽约市是比较有名的三所学院之一，叫Manage MusicSchool（音），这个学位花了我两年的时间。老师非常好，是声乐教育家，在美国也非常有名，叫RoseFocon（音）。在他的介绍下找到了经纪人，之后就开始了我在纽约的职业演唱家的生涯。

主持人晓虹：当时是什么原因让您回国的？

多吉次仁：当时有很多的原因。虽然人在西藏，但是我的工作国外还有，我现在每年还是都有合约的，一直到2010年。当然有了经纪人以后你可以去歌剧院试唱，你要去唱，之后他会给你角色。

主持人晓虹：我听您讲话觉得声音是非常浑厚的。有一个问题，是不是因为青藏高原这种独特的高原气候让您的嗓音如此独特呢？

多吉次仁：可能吧。也不能说我嗓子独特，但是青藏高原这块土地上的人，由于它特殊的生活方式，生活的态度，包括它的饮食结构、文化背景，当然很多文化现象可能使得声音上有一种特性——高亢。很明亮、很有磁性，我想肯定有一定的原因。

主持人晓虹：您现在在这儿从事的主要是音乐教育工作，您带的主要是什么学生呢？

多吉次仁：现在主要带本科生和研究生这两块。在我回来之前本是没有研究生的，我来了之后申请了研究生教学这块。今年是我们学校首届的声乐研究生毕业。

主持人晓虹：看到自己教的研究生毕业了，而且还是首次毕业了，什么感受？

多吉次仁：怎么说呢？挺高兴的。当然，从这个艺术院校来讲，我们还没有一个研究生学历的培养方向。所以说来了以后建立了这个研究生这一块的培训，首次有研究生毕业了，我觉得确实很有意义。我们这个研究生这是第一届，可能陆续还有第二届、第三届，并且还会培养出更多研究生的学生。

主持人晓虹：好的，谢谢多吉次仁教授作客腾讯。谢谢您。

多吉次仁：谢谢。

http://www.chinatibetnews.com/xizang/tegao/2009-04/30/content_237050.htm

千年明月

dorje同学，楼主是以一种积极赞赏并发扬西藏文化的态度来展望的。我不明白，为什么你会作这么狭隘的回复，是否太过敏感？

看“圆明园”这部片子，感触良多，英法烧杀抢掠时竟发现圆中是有英国之前表示友好相赠的洋 ...
音乐盒 发表于 2009-8-15 18:04

说得好！一个民族如果不能正视自身文化的糟粕和落后之处，永远不肯反思自己，并向先进的文明学习、与时代同进步，终有一天会被时代远远抛弃。

袭明

I agree with dorje on his comments about Tiebtan Buddism. The Tibetan Buddism is a treasure of humanities, including cultures, religion, philosophy, psychology, logic and sciences; it is the heritage of a long-standing tradition embedded with some greatest human minds. This tradition had been isolated from mainstream modernization and therefore misunderstood by many people. The overall human experiences will be greatly enriched if the modern people can discover and understand more from this tradition.

Stevenyaung

Some good points here. I definitely agree with you on Tibetan culture and Tibetan arts which are getting more and more popular and catching people's attention in the world.However ,I am also wonder, ...
dorje 发表于 2009-8-15 17:08

I have a little study on the history of Tibetan buddism.But I do not do deep researchs on Tibetan buddism itself .       I ever read the book-----"the shadow of Dala Lama",in which the author gave very serious critism on Tibetan Tantrism.But I think the author's critism is too extreme and insane.Anyway I have some kind of understanding about Tibetan Buddism.

Traditionally Tibetan monasteries are the only resource of  arts ,intellengence and knowledge before 1950s because Tibetan Monastery is just like a Buddism school  or college  that Melvin Goldstein ever stated in his book----"THe Demise of Lamaist state" and monopolied the thinkings of the entire Tibetan socity before 1959.


So you know I understand some kind of Tibetan buddism and culture.To be true I also read the book ----"Tibet:a political history" writed by Wangchuk Deden  Shakabpa who is formal Tsibon in Kashag government before 1959.

I here want to list the four sects of TIbetan buddism----Nyingmapa,Sakyapa,Karmapa(sorry，should be “Kagyupa”） and Gelugpa.I also have some knowlege on the inner structure of Tibetan Monastery before 1959.Both Tibetan Buddism and Northern Buddhism belong to Mahayana.BUt TIbetan tantrism is more like Vajra .So Tibetan Tantrism is very special to Tibetans themselves.I think only very few people know about Tibetan tantrism including Tibetans themselves.

I am not new here.You can read my message dilivered by me---- " 达赖喇嘛--评论时用注意的地方"  that I show my capability on the translation of some words between Chinese language and English language concerning about the Tibet.

我是 中国 的汉族人。我会用中文和英语。下次我将使用中文。

Stevenyaung

音乐盒 ,谢谢你 非常 精准的 翻译

Stevenyaung

Dorge,

what i want to say is that It is very normal that there are many Han Chinese who do not know the Tibetan Culture and History.Even　many Han Chinese themselves do not know the history of CHina very much. I think most of Tibetans also do not know the history of China .

THe basic and fundamental thing is that history is and will be always develping toward right direction.It is only the question that how long the Tibetans will be fully intergrated into the whole China with their own properties still being preserved very well.Chinese socity is not like the US socity which is typical imigration socity which make people easy to be intergrated.So I think Tibetans should make more efforts to intergrate into Chinese socity and the whole world and let the people in the world know that Tibetan culture is not  always old ,traditional and Buddism-monopolied,but also new and keeps up with the time.

I think Tibetans should look forward and do not strengthen too much on history.After all both cultures of Tibetans and Han chinese have fundamental similarities.For example,religionly both Han Chinese and Tibetan Chinese believe Buddism even though Han chinese do not have deep trust on Buddhism like Tibetans because most of them  believe reality more than Buddhism which is far from reality when it comes to the practical life.

Common Han Chinese do not hate Buddhism, so does Tibetan Buddhism.What common Han chinese hate is that Buddhism is being involved into politics that is not the tradition of Northern Buddhism.So I think Tibetan BUddhism was and  is involved into Politics too much.Especially 14th Dala lama took part in too much political activities that makes Han chinese have some kind of misunderstanding on Tibetan Buddhism.

The key is in TIbetans themselves,especially on 14th Dala Lama himself.If Dala Lame continues to involve in politics,Han Chinese will have more misunderstanding on TIbetan Buddhism.THe good thing  is that  Panchen Lama is still there in Tibetan buddhism which let people  and Han Chinese see the different face of TIbetan Buddhism.

Han Chinese in fact do not see the person according to  their race which is a long tradition of common Han Chinese.This is why China change so fast and rapidly in the past 30 years.Han CHinese can learn anthing from other peoples including Tibetan Chinese.

I do not know whether Dorge know my views above or not .I hope you understant that.I hope you can see the relationship between Han CHinese and TIbetan Chinese from a deeper and wider angle and do not trap into the angle of race and do not trap too much on the thinkings of many westerners because  Han Chinese have their own philosophy which is very maturated.Even from the angle of race,Han chinese and Tibetan Chinese are the same.The difference is ethnics and only ethnics.I hope you can have a little bit of  thinking from a Han CHinese's aspect.

dorje

Dorge,

what i want to say is that It is very normal that there are many Han Chinese who do not know the Tibetan Culture and History.Even　many Han Chinese themselves do not know the history of CHina  ...
Stevenyaung 发表于 2009-8-16 13:26

Yep, we should look into the future instead of always living in the past. We should extensive communicate with each other just like now. What’s the more,  We should seek common ground while reserving differences. We should respect and understand for the cultural differences between two peoples. Anyway, without respect for people of different ethnics or religions, how can we have a peaceful and harmonious society? And without a harmonious society, how can there be the necessary economic development and atmosphere conducive to spiritual happiness and self-realization?

The world is constantly in flux, and continually changing, especially in this era of Internet. Misinformation and strategic propaganda is losing ground everyday as the common person becomes more aware and more educated every minute.

Having said that, However, I agree with your some points,  Whatever nationality we are, Whatever background we are, we are all Chinese, that is enough.Again, promoting ethnic and social harmony in China is most Tibetans' wishes.

Stevenyaung

Yep, we should look into the future instead of always living in the past. We should extensive communicate with each other just like now. What’s the more,  We should seek common ground while reservi ...
dorje 发表于 2009-8-16 19:06

求同存异一直是中国政府的政策，这也是汉族人民的追求。

但是这并不代表这种“求同存异”就是永远不变。西藏这么一个很小的社会有其内在的缺陷。整个西藏社会是非常脆弱的，这一点我们从西藏的历史可以看出来。那怎么改变西藏这种脆弱呢，唯一的出路就是融入更加广阔的中国。

我讲一个华人在美国社会生活的例子。华人在美国生活已经有150多年，其受到的歧视在美国社会是根深蒂固的。著名的加州排华法案就是一个例子。一直到1940s，美国才正是终止排华法案。现在华人在美国的平均收入大概是60000多美元，排在白人之后，但远远高于黑人和拉美裔美国人。政治上的地位也不看同日而语。

为什么现在华人能够在美国如此风光。除了中国崛起的原因之外，更重要的是华人很好地融入了美国社会，他们把自己的孩子送到美国知名大学接受最后的教育。所以在美国华人律师，科学家，经济学家和政治高官都不少。

我想现在西藏的藏族同胞可以向美国华人学习很多东西。因为中国的历史是朝着大融合方向前进的，所以藏人融入中国社会是迟早的问题。当然藏人会继续保留他们的语言，文化和传统，这跟许多中国南方的其他少数民族一样，虽然经过几千年，许多南方的少数民族仍然保留着他们固有的文化语言和传统。当然他们对于汉语和汉族文化也是相当熟悉的。要不然就不会有戴秉国这样主持中美战略与经济对话的土家族国务委员了。

袭明

I donot think reading books like "the shadow of Dala Lama", "THe Demise of Lamaist state", would give you any idea about the spiritual achievements of Tibetan Buddhism. They are highly political, and politics is not everything about Tibetan Buddhism.

possibly the book by 舍尔巴茨基  will give you some impression about the Tibetan buddhism.
http://www.amazon.cn/mn/searchAp ... 4%E8%8C%A8%E5%9F%BA

Stevenyaung

I donot think reading books like "the shadow of Dala Lama", "THe Demise of Lamaist state", would give you any idea about the spiritual achievements of Tibetan Buddhism. They are highly political, and  ...
袭明 发表于 2009-8-16 23:33

谢谢你。

我不是去专门研究佛教。我主要是想看西藏问题的前因后果。但是我对于西藏佛教史和西藏历史很感兴趣。我对于佛教本身不是很感兴趣，不管是北传佛教还是南传佛教还是藏传佛教。

本身佛教是个好东西，不过跟政治结合起来就糟糕了。这就是我看那些书籍的原因。当然那本阿佩阿旺晋美说的喜欢cut history的"西藏政治史"（前亲英和支持独立的原噶厦孜本夏格巴所著述）。当然平措次仁写得西藏史也值得看一下。这些都有利于我了解西藏历史的真实。

我本身对于佛教教义不是很感兴趣。

不过基本上来说

大乘佛教强调 佛由心生，普渡众生
小乘佛教强调 佛由心生，超度自身
藏传佛教 就 大大变形了，原因是其跟政治权力结合太深，特别是其密教太过于神秘.神秘的宗教仪式太多。

所以不要把西藏的佛教捧上天，也不要贬低佛教对于西藏社会的贡献。总之我们要以实事求是的态度分析藏传佛教对于西藏社会正反两方面的影响。

比如来说，最简单的 14th 达赖喇嘛居然 以“抓阄”的方式 决定他自己的前途，决定噶厦政府的政策，这简直就是草菅西藏人民的前途。当然西藏佛教对于普通的藏民也有非常积极的贡献，因为西藏是个人口很稀少的地方，他们需要佛教来净化他们的心灵。当然，藏传佛教也是利用这一点来统治它的人民。

总之我们要辨证的来看藏传佛教。

Stevenyaung

谢谢你。

我不是去专门研究佛教。我主要是想看西藏问题的前因后果。但是我对于西藏佛教史和西藏历史很感兴趣。我对于佛教本身不是很感兴趣，不管是北传佛教还是南传佛教还是藏传佛教。

本身佛教是个好东西，不过 ...
Stevenyaung 发表于 2009-8-16 23:51

也许有些人不知道和不懂得大乘佛教和小乘佛教的区别。在这里我想举一个简单的例子加以说明。

我就对比一下有些越南的佛教徒和中国的佛教徒在救国战争的表现。

越南在抗美救国时，有些和尚以自焚来表示抗议，这其实与小乘佛教有密切的关系。小乘佛教的较易很明显只有“超度自身”才能救世，所以越南的佛教徒会用这种极端的手段来表示对于美国入侵越南和帮助南越打内战他们的抗议


相反，这种情况几乎不会发生在中国的佛教徒身上，中国的佛教徒会有两种表现。

第一种，继续在庙里念经求佛，当然寺庙也会给予苦难的人救助。
第二种，就是还俗，就像许世友将军所做的，看到家乡人民的苦难，坚决参加革命。

当然大乘佛教自然而然有"救世"的思想，因为其“普度众生”的理想很是要求佛教界作出某种姿态来面对国家危难。所以当中国面临危机时，佛教界的领导者也积极的参与后方的各种慈善活动

所以比较中越佛教徒在救国过程中的表现，我们可以清楚的看到小乘佛教和大乘佛教的区别。

dorje

也许有些人不知道和不懂得大乘佛教和小乘佛教的区别。在这里我想举一个简单的例子加以说明。

我就对比一下有些越南的佛教徒和中国的佛教徒在救国战争的表现。

越南在抗美救国时，有些和尚以自焚来表示抗议，这其 ...
Stevenyaung 发表于 2009-8-18 21:46

我说下我的看法吧
小乘佛教修行主要是为个人证得阿罗汉果，从而断一切嗜欲和烦恼并出三界生死
而大乘则是要修一颗菩提(慈悲)心，普度众生，
他们一般会立下弘大誓愿，要救渡一切众生脱离苦海，从而得到彻底解脱。

另外无论大乘还是小乘，都反对暴力和杀生，当然也包括自虐以及苦行
自焚自然也就更不提倡了
以前藏人也有自焚情况，曾被达赖喇嘛批评过

Stevenyaung

我说下我的看法吧
小乘佛教修行主要是为个人证得阿罗汉果，从而断一切嗜欲和烦恼并出三界生死
而大乘则是要修一颗菩提(慈悲)心，普度众生，
他们一般会立下弘大誓愿，要救渡一切众生脱离苦海，从而得到彻底解脱。
...
dorje 发表于 2009-8-18 22:28

我是 通过 不同佛教徒在国家和社会面临危机的时候，特别是外国入侵的时候的表现而对于大乘佛教和小乘佛教的一些区别做简单的解释。

可以说中越佛教徒在面临国家危难和生灵涂炭下的不同表现也说明了大乘佛教和小乘佛教的区别。

当然所有佛教在教义上都是强调反暴力和杀生，但是面临社会危机和国家危机的时候，不同派别的佛教徒自然就有不同于常规教义的表现。

藏传佛教所转入的暴力事件或者自焚事件跟其政教合一的传统有密切联系，自从吐蕃王朝在公元9世纪垮台后，一直如此，到现在也没有根本改变，时有发生。