|
楼主 |
发表于 2009-9-18 00:10
|
显示全部楼层
附文章后的读者评论
本帖最后由 rlsrls08 于 2009-9-18 00:24 编辑
There are 22 comments
Sort by: Oldest Newest
第一条留言
21 hours ago
BUZZ BELLEVILLE wrote:
This is kind of a strange article. Let's just set things straight.
First, while China is the largest emitter of CO2, on a per capita (per person) basis, they are still nowhere near the U.S. (and they're still less than the EU and Russia and other developed countries).
Second, the U.S. and Japan are not pressuring Beijing for a hard cap. The developed countries actually recognize that the position of China and other major developing countries (Brazil, S.Africa, India, etc) has some merit. We (the developed countries) recognize that we have been able to achieve a certain std of living on the back of cheap, CO2 intensive energy. They have yet to achieve that std, and they should not have to sacrifice trying to 'catch up.' Moreover, it is the U.S. and the EU that are largely responsible for the GW we're experiencing now. All those GHGs trapped in the atmosphere ... well, we put them up there and they'll be there for decades.
Because the West recognizes there is some merit to China's aversion to hard caps, we're heading into Copenhagen without even asking for them. What the West is looking for is "meaningful and verifiable commitments" (to use the language of the Bali road map) from China. What this will mean is open for debate. Likely, we'll see some sort of intensity cap commitment from energing economies, where their GHG emissions are capped, but only relative to their GDPs. So they cannot emit more than 100 tons of GHGs for every million dollars of GDP, for example. That way, they could continue to grow unimpeded, but they must do so in a CO2 sensitive way. The intensity caps would ratchet down over time, just like our hard caps would. The key I think is to get them to agree that a hard cap kicks in whenever they reach 'develored' status (the IMF type entities have definitions for all that stuff).
To the author's main point, I'm having a hard time buying that it is "harder" for the authoritarian govt of China to implement broad-reaching policies than it is for democracies like ours. It's just counterintuitive, and it's not supported by the facts. If Beijing wants to build 4000mW wind farms, it just does it. That's the essence of central planning. And China is kicking our butts on wind energy, solar energy, battery technology, electric cars, nuclear power, energy efficiency measures, etc. Their leaders may be motivated more by economics than by AGW, though there is some recognition that they will be particulary vulnerable as the effects of AGW continue to be felt (they have a big coast, and not much infrastructure to deal with mitigation efforts). Regardless, they recognize the exploding populations and massive emerging economies are going to create an enormous demand for sustainable, clean energy in the coming decades, and they (unlike us) are able to plan to own that industry. They are going to take our jobs in clean energy, they are going to own the industry that we largely invented, in large part because of their managed economy.
I wouldn't trade our democracy and free market systems for China's authoritarian regime and managed economy. But the author's point that their system is somehow preventing them from taking on the challenges of AGW just doesn't make sense ... in fact, it seems to be directly the contrary. We need to put a price on carbon emissions if we ever hope to push our democratic free market system to compete with what their central planners can do.
以下是针对第一条留言的回复
12 hours ago
Richard Brubaker replied:
Buzz.
True - per capita wise China is 1/4 of US, however this number includes 900 million farmers who are living off the grid.. and it is important to keep this in mind going forward because over the next 15 years we will see 400 million of those 900 million move to the city.
A migration that will radically alter the gross and per capita figure.
R
www.cleanergreenerchina.com
12 hours ago
BUZZ BELLEVILLE replied:
Agreed. The fact that there are so many yet to tap in and turn on is, at first blush, scary. But it also means that China is in a unique position of creating a CO2 sensitive infrastructure, which is much easier than the task we have of changing are hard-core, politically-supported, and well-monied infrastructure. And the same is true of many places around the globe -- if we (the U.S., or other big economies) can really mass produce and mass demonstrate the green tech of tomorrow, the market potential is mind-boggling.
11 hours ago
Richard Brubaker replied:
Buzz - agree on the market potential, but I am not sure that "carbon" is the market. In China, the market is in upgrading industrial complexes, retrofitting buildings, and working on core environment issues that lead to carbon.
One area where I think we (US and China) are still very far apart is that the US tends to treat "carbon" first as a market opportunity and is restricted by venture capital hurdle rates and government incentives. China's angle on this is very different, and it is why I think COP 15 is largely going to fail, and we will not see the US/ China sign a major "carbon" treaty. It will take a different form, and my feeling is that it will start with the basics... transfer of technologies that are aimed at improving the real economy first.
See my post on this topic for more
http://www.cleanergreenerchina.c ... tech-dominance-why/
11 hours ago
BUZZ BELLEVILLE replied:
I too doubt that we'll have a binding, global carbon-reduction bill this December (though I do think the groundwork will be laid to hammer out details in upcoming months). And I also believe that tech transfer will be something that will emerge from COP-15. But I also think we'll get some other concessions (like, hopefully, intensity caps and agreements on emission limits for particular manufacturing sectors, and agreements on mitigation efforts and tech transfer). So many folks here don't realize how much China is actually doing already. Multiple MASSIVE wind farms are going up, quickly, while we spend six years litigating over the siting of a single wind farm that is 1/20th the size of what they're using over there. They already have better CAFE and energy efficiency stds that we have. Their GHG emission stds for particular sectors (concrete, steel, etc) are much more stringent than ours. They're getting nuke plants up and running in a quarter of the time it would take us, even if a nuke plant could wade its way thru the reg hurdles here. The new coal-fired plants coming on line every week in China, that's true. But they're also laying the groundwork for a far more efficient (CO2 sensitive) infrastructure that we have. Even ignoring the rest of the world, China itself is a remarkable market potential.
I hear you that preventing simple industrial pollution may be the greatest "market" in China right now, but the supply for that market is not distinct from the supply for green energy tech products. By and large, it's the same stuff.
11 hours ago
BUZZ BELLEVILLE replied:
Oh, and I will check out your blog.
11 hours ago
BUZZ BELLEVILLE replied:
I did read your post Richard, and it does make an excellent point. I get jaded on this WSJ board, and feel like I have to justify all positions supporting GHG reduction in ways that are good for the U.S. economy. I wish your perspective would take hold, but I think if we're going to make any headway putting a price on carbon then, politically, we're going to have to sell it as a way of setting the U.S. up to lead in the 21st century. I wish it weren't the case, but I think that's the political reality.
10 hours ago
Greg Arnot replied:
Buzz, the author presents a delicious contradiction. Beijing is authoritarian....true. AND Beijing is powerless...also true.
For over 2000 years, China has had this system where Beijing is powerful, but Beijing is also far far away and local political bosses rule.
The Chinese people have a powerful libertarian streak and it is difficult to force things upon them. FOR EXAMPLE, with a few exceptions in Shanghai, China does not have Stop signs.
Why does China not have Stop signs? Because governments in China realize nobody would obey them. In China's political structure, it is very important not to make laws which everyone will just ignore, it causes loss of face.
So, this US professor is asking China to become MORE AUTHORITARIAN but to do it in a way where COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS LIKE ACORN are given the authority to make changes at the local levels where changes really occur.
Join me in encouraging China to ignore these Warmists. China must base global warming policies upon objective Chinese scientists. |
评分
-
1
查看全部评分
-
|