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【纽约时报110818】糟糕的中国体育体制

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 楼主| 发表于 2011-8-19 17:06 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
【中文标题】对体制说不

【原文标题】Saying No to the System

【登载媒体】纽约时报

【来源地址】http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/sports/chinese-athletes-begin-to-challenge-governments-tight-grip.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3&ref=china

【译    者】lilyma06

【翻译方式】人工

【声    明】本翻译供Anti-CNN使用,未经AC或译者许可,不得转载。

【译    文】

ATHLETES2-articleLarge.jpg
The Chinese Basketball Association suspended and condemned Fan Bin, far right, for his violent behavior; the coach was reinstated after he promised to change his ways.
中国篮球协会对范斌(最右边)禁赛并谴责其暴力行为。教练在承诺会改变其做法之后复职。

BEIJING — Perhaps it was the latest bruise turning purple, or those final flecks of spit wiped away while walking off the court, or the curses echoing off the bleachers. Whatever the reason, the members of China’s national junior basketball team decided one day in April that enough was enough. So they wrote down their plea in teenager scrawl, signed their names with ink-stained fingerprints and sent it to the Chinese Basketball Association.
北京 - 也许是因为最近的瘀伤变青了,或者是走出球场后那些碎片斑点被抹去了,又或者是咒骂声不断地回荡在看台中。不管什么原因,中国国家青年篮球队的成员在四月的一天终于受够了。所以他们联名上书给中国篮球协会“血书兵谏”。
ATHLETESvignette-popup.jpg
An image, taken with a player's cellphone, of the letter that China's national junior team sent to the Chinese Basketball Association asking that their coach, Fan Bin, be replaced.
中国青年篮球队员联名上书给中国篮球协会要求更换主教练范斌。
“Coach Fan Bin has repeatedly insulted our team over the past three years by beating and verbally abusing us, and we can no longer bear his treatment,” read the letter, which was swiftly leaked to the news media. “We submit this protest to the central officials and request that he be replaced.”
信中写道,“我们因无法忍受主教练范斌在这三年来屡次出现对大家人格上的侮辱与打骂且从未改正,在此向中心领导提出抗议,(要求)更换主教练。”这封信很快就在媒体曝光。
Chinese athletes, once dutiful ambassadors who obediently spent their lives in pursuit of patriotic glory, are no longer willing to just grin and bear it. A series of recent controversies is shedding light on how young athletes are beginning to expose abuse, challenge exploitation and reject official interference in their careers — risky moves in a country where there is no separation of sport and state. Their struggle is a microcosm of the clash in contemporary China between the push for personal liberty and the grip of an authoritarian government.
中国的运动员,曾经很老实本分,用尽一生的时间去追求爱国荣誉,但如今他们不愿再逆来顺受。最近的一系列辩论在讨论年轻运动员是如何开始揭露虐待,挑战剥削,拒绝在自己的职业生涯有官方干涉,这对于在体育和国家不分界的国度来说是一个危险举动。他们的斗争是当代中国奋力追求个人自由以及独裁政府的控制之间冲突的缩影。
Like a growing number of Chinese, athletes have found a voice on the Internet and in the news media, publicizing conflicts and complaints the government would rather keep quiet.
像越来越多的中国人一样,运动员们在互联网上和新闻媒体上找到宣传冲突以及抱怨政府而非保持沉默的一个途径。
“What’s happening now is the younger generation of athletes has so many options to communicate, through microblogs and social networking, that they want to stand up and speak out,” said Jiang Yi, the managing editor of Sports Illustrated China.
“现在年轻一代的运动员有那么多沟通的选择方式,通过微博和社交网络,他们要站出来说话,”《中国体育画报》的总编姜毅说。
Yet athletes face a formidable opponent: the state-run sports system — a bureaucracy of training schools, teams and government organizations that selects and coaches more than 250,000 young people for the purpose of winning gold medals.
然而运动员们面对着一个强大的对手:国家体育系统——这是一个从超过25万的年轻人中挑选和培训的学校,团队和政府机构组织,其目标就是为了赢得金牌。
The system offers many athletes the chance to bring honor to their families and country through competition. But some of these athletes find that the Olympic rings become shackles that bind them for years in indentured servitude to a government that frequently neglects their scholastic education and ignores their injuries while taking a sizable cut of their earnings, all in the name of national pride.
该系统为许多运动员通过竞争给他们家人和国家带来荣誉的机会。但有些运动员觉得奥运五环成为多年来禁锢约束他们的枷锁,而政府又经常忽略了他们的学术教育和他们的伤势,并削减他们的收入,而所有这一切都是以为了民族自豪的名义。
It is a recipe that leaves many athletes unprepared to compete in the real world once they can no longer perform in a stadium. According to the state news media, 240,000 retired athletes suffer from injuries, poverty and unemployment.
而这也让许多运动员离开运动场之后在现实世界的竞争中措手不及。据媒体统计,24万退役运动员目前面临伤病,贫困和失业的状况。
One of those is Zhang Shangwu, 28, a former gymnastics champion who was discovered last month begging on a Beijing street. Selected at age 5 by the Hebei provincial government, Zhang won two gold medals before he injured his Achilles’ tendon during practice in 2002. He was forced by his coach to continue training. Sports officials then denied his request to study academic subjects and finally parted ways with him in 2005 with a pension of 38,000 renminbi, or $4,750, he said. “It was barely enough for food and the clothes on my back,” he told The Beijing News. Unskilled and unable to work because of his injury, he sold his medals for the equivalent of $13 and then was caught stealing. After being released from prison, he turned to panhandling.
这其中之一就是28岁的张尚武,他是一名前体操冠军,但是上个月却被人发现在北京街头乞讨。张尚武在5岁时被由河北省队选中并赢得过两枚金牌,但在2002年的训练中跟腱断裂。他被教练强迫继续训练。随后体育官员拒绝了他学习教育的要求,在2005年给了他38000人民币(4,750美金)养老金,并最终退役。“这些都不够吃的和衣服,”他这样告诉北京新闻。因为他的伤也没有技能,无法工作的他把他的奖牌卖掉了,只卖了13美元,之后又因盗窃被捉。从监狱释放之后他又开始乞讨。
The ensuing publicity of Zhang’s plight fueled outrage against the sports system and drew sympathy from the public, prompting a Chinese billionaire to offer Zhang a job as a personal trainer.
接下来对张尚武困境的宣传更增添了人们对体育体制的愤怒,并引起了公众的同情,一个中国的亿万富翁决定给张尚武提供一份工作,让他来作其私人教练。
Success is also fueling rebellion within the athletic ranks among those talented enough to challenge the system. The tennis star Li Na, 29, was forced to choose between her career and her country in 2008 when she left the Chinese national team after sports officials refused to relinquish control of her life.
也有一些有才华的人来挑战运动员等级体系,最后取得成功。29岁的网球名将李娜在2008年被迫在她的职业生涯和国家之间做出选择,她在体育官员拒绝放弃控制她的生活之后离开中国国家队。
“When I was on the national team, the state picked my coach and chose which tournaments I played in,” she said in a phone interview. “Now that I’m on my own, I can make my own decisions.
“当我在国家队的时候,国家帮我选教练,告诉我去参加哪些比赛,”她在接受电话采访时说道,“现在,我可以自己做主,作出自己的的决定。
jp-athlethes-2-popup.jpg

The former gymnastics world champion Zhang Shangwu was discovered begging on a Beijing street.
前体操世界冠军张尚武被发现在北京街头乞讨。
jp-athlethes-1-popup.jpg
Miniature flags bearing the likeness of the French Open champion Li Na before a celebration organized by the WTA in Beijing in July.
在7月在北京由女子网球协会举办的庆祝法国网球公开赛冠军有李娜照片的小旗子。
In June, Li won the French Open singles title, becoming the first Asian national to win a Grand Slam tournament. To reward her, the Hubei provincial government gave her a prize worth $92,000 and offered her a plumb government job, which she declined, saying she wanted to focus on playing tennis.
6月李赢得法国网球公开赛单打冠军,成为第一个赢得大满贯的亚洲人。湖北省政府为了奖励她,赠与她价值92,000美元的奖金,以及一个省直的工作,她拒绝了。她说她希望把重心放在打网球上。
Now independent, Li must pay up to only 12 percent of her winnings to the government, much less than the 65 percent normally required.
现在不受约束的她只要将其奖金的12%给政府,比通常所需的65%少得多。
While a small number of athletes have been able to escape the sports system, others not so lucky are voicing dissent as they see professional sports stars gain fame and fortune, prompting a crackdown by government censors.
虽然一小部分运动员已经成功逃离体育系统,还是有剩下不那么幸运的那群人,他们因为看到职业体坛明星取得名和利,发出了异议,同时这也加速了政府监管部门的镇压。
A day after Li won the French Open, Chen Yibing, the captain of China’s men’s gymnastic team and an Olympic gold medalist, announced on his blog that he was “jealous” of the advantages enjoyed by professional athletes.
李在赢得法国网球公开赛后的一天,中国男子体操队队长、奥运金牌得主李一冰在他的博客中写道,他对专业运动员所享有的优势表示“嫉妒”。
“You get to compete for yourself, no need to carry anything on your shoulders,” he wrote. State-supported athletes, he continued, get to compete internationally only in world championships and in the Olympics. “How many ‘four years’ does one athlete have? If we are successful, is it because of the state sport system? If we fail after four years of training, what has happened to our hard work?”
“你只是为自己去争,肩上没必要承担责任,”他写道。而国家队员却只能在世界锦标赛和奥运会上进行国际间的竞争。“一名运动员有几个‘四年’?如果我们成功了,是因为国家体育体制吗?如果我们经过4年的训练失败了,我们的艰苦训练算什么呢?
While Li’s title in a major tournament brought her public praise from the Chinese government, her go-it-alone success was also a loss of face for the Communist Party. Only two days after her victory, the Central Propaganda Department issued a news media directive “to stop hyping Li Na’s win.”
虽然李娜的重大赛事冠军为她赢得了来自中国政府对她的称赞,但她特立独行的成功也让共产党有损颜面。比赛结束后仅仅两天,中宣部发出新闻媒体指令“停止对李娜胜利的炒作”。
But athletes are not so easily stifled. When the national youth basketball team’s complaints against its coach gained notice among the public, the Chinese Basketball Association quickly moved to contain the scandal by suspending the coach and condemning his violent behavior. Weeks later he was quietly reinstated, only after promising to change his ways. The protest appears to have had the desired effect.
但是运动员们不是那么容易被抑制的。当国家青年篮球队对教练的投诉引起公众的注意后,中国篮协迅速对教练停止并谴责他的暴力行为以此来控制丑闻。几个星期后,,他承诺要改变方式然后悄悄地复职了。这次抗议活动取得了预期的效果。
A member of the Tsinghua University basketball team who played against the junior team before and after the controversy said the coach’s behavior had “completely transformed.”
之前跟青年队比赛过的清华大学篮球队的一名队员,在争议前后说道这位教练的行为“完全变形了。”
Corporal punishment has long been used by coaches and teachers in China to instill a strict code of discipline. But this rite of passage is increasingly controversial, much to the dismay of sports officials.
在中国体罚是被教练和教师灌输纪律严明的代码。但是这种方法引起越来越更多的争议,很多体育官员对此很沮丧。
“Coaches treat their players like their children, and it’s completely normal for parents to hit their kids,” Bai Xilin, the C.B.A.’s chairman of game operations, said in an interview.
“教练对于自己的球员就像对待自己的孩子一样,而家长打孩子是完全正常的。”CBA的比赛运营主席白喜林在接受记者采访时说道。
Bai acknowledged that the old guard has trouble relating to younger players who have grown up in a more open and prosperous era. But he dismissed the players’ complaints as evidence of a generation gone spoiled. “Kids these days are unable to eat bitterness,” he said. “They want the results but they aren’t willing to endure the hard times.”
白承认,年轻队员成长在一个更加开放和繁荣的时代,老一辈的守旧派认同他们会有些困难。但他没把队员们的抱怨当成是这一代队员被宠坏了的依据。“这个年代的孩子无法吃苦头,”他说。“他们想要结果,但不愿意忍受承担困苦。”
Rather than condemn the coach’s behavior, Bai criticized the players, who he believes betrayed the sports system by going to the news media with their protest rather than trusting the issue would be solved internally.
白没有谴责教练的行为,而是批评球员们背叛了体育体系,直接去找新闻媒体抗议,而不是内部解决这个问题。
“There is a lot of tension within a family but nobody should ever seek to expose those problems to the outside world,” he said.
“一个家庭内部会有很多问题,但没人向外界揭露这些问题,”他说。
Change is coming along slowly, said the tennis star Li, thanks in part to the growing presence of foreign coaches. “They have an influence on athletes who see there is another way of doing things,” she said.
变化是慢慢产生的,网球名将李娜说,这一部分也要感谢外籍教练。“他们对运动员有影响,而这是另一种做事方式。”她说。
When Bob Donewald Jr., a former N.B.A. assistant, began coaching the Shanghai Sharks two years ago, one of the first things he did was end the basketball team’s curfew and bed check, which are common practices within the sports system.
两年前,前N.B.A.助理小鲍勃·邓华德开始执教上海大鲨鱼队,他做的第一件事是结束篮球队的宵禁和查铺,这是体育体系内的共同做法。
“I felt we should treat the players like men and see if they act like men,” he said.
“我觉得我们应该像男人一样对待球员,看看他们是不是做得像个男人,”他说。
Now the coach of the national team, Donewald was ordered to keep the curfew, but he has won the respect of the players and sports officials by coaching through communication, rather than intimidation.
现在的国家队主教练邓华德奉命保持宵禁,但他通过沟通而不是威胁已经赢得了运动员和体育官员的尊重。
“I think I’ve shown those guys that you can grill them hard one minute and put an arm around them the next,” he said. “You don’t have to crush them the whole time.”
“我想我已经证明给大家,你可以前一分钟拷问他,下一分钟就又搂起他,没必要一直压迫他们”他说。
If the government is slowly loosening its clutch on athletes’ professional lives, it is less willing to give up financial control. Both professional and Olympic athletes must hand over part of their earnings to sports officials, who say athletes need to repay the system for years of training. Yao Ming was forced to give as much as 8 percent of his total N.B.A. career earnings to the Chinese government, which then sold his image rights without his permission to Coca-Cola, despite his endorsement deal with Pepsi.
如果政府慢慢放松对运动员职业生涯的控制,它也不太愿意放弃财务控制。专业和奥运会运动员必须交出一部分他们所得来交给体育官员。体育官员认为运动员回报为体制的多年培养。姚明被迫放弃他多达8%的NBA的职业生涯总收入给中国政府。尽管姚明与百事可乐签订代言协议,中国又把他的肖像权未经他的许可卖给了可口可乐。
Sponsorships deals have become one of the government’s favorite ways to maximize control. Even those who never went through the sports system can find themselves barred from competition if they refuse to grease palms by promoting government-endorsed brands. That is what happened in April to one of China’s top BMX riders, Shen Jian, at the X Games Asia in Shanghai.
赞助广告已成为政府喜欢的最大限度地控制方式之一。即使那些从来没有被体育体系审查的人如果拒绝推销国家赞助的牌子,最后也会被禁止竞争。这就是发生在今年4月上海极限运动中国顶尖小轮越野车手沈健身上的一件事。
Shen, a tattooed 23-year-old who taught himself to ride as a teenager and swept the sport’s competitions in China last year, recently signed an exclusive endorsement deal with the apparel company Vans. But the government-run China Extreme Sports Association prohibited him from competing at the X Games unless he wore a jersey emblazoned with the official Chinese sponsor’s logo, which would have nullified his Vans contract. To further coerce Shen, the association barred him from the games even after ESPN, one of the event organizers, allowed him to compete as a “wild card.” Rather than sacrifice his endorsement, however, he refused to cooperate.
沈今年23岁,身上有纹身,从小就自学骑车,并在去年席卷了中国的体育比赛,最近与一家服装公司签署了商用车的独家代言协议。但中国官方极限运动协会要求他穿带有中国的官方赞助商的标志的衣服去比赛,否则就禁止他参加极限比赛,而这就与他之前签订的商用车代言冲突。为了进一步要挟沈,协会甚至还禁止他参加活动的组织者之一娱乐体育电视新闻网的比赛,只允许他作为“万能牌”比赛。然而为了不牺牲自己的代言,他拒绝了合作。
CESA does not train or finance athletes, but Liu Qing, the association’s deputy secretary general, was unapologetic about blocking athletes, even though their income is at stake. “If they want to represent their country and get exposure, they need us,” she said. “For them, being selected is an honor because it means they are the best in China.”
中国极限运动协会不培养或资助运动员,但即使运动员的收入很有限,协会副秘书长刘青对阻止运动员行为也不表示道歉,。“如果他们要代表国家,并想公开露面,他们会需要我们,”她说。“对于他们来说,被选中的是一种荣誉,因为这意味着他们是中国最好的选手。”
Athletes like Shen, who receive no state support and depend on endorsement deals for their livelihood, say the government’s actions are simply extortion dressed as patriotism, especially because the association pockets most sponsorship profits. “CESA taught me nothing,” he said. “I don’t need to wear their clothing so they can make money and exploit me.”
而像沈一样不接受国家支持,而靠代言协议维持生计的运动员说政府的行为只是打着爱国主义口号进行敲诈勒索,因为协会拿走了大多数赞助商的利润。“中国极限运动协会什么都没教会我,”他说。“我不需要穿他们的衣服,这样他们就可以赚钱并剥削我。”
That independent ethos drives China’s BMX athletes, who are self-made and have little patience for government meddling in an increasingly popular sport built on their passion and skill. “We riders created this community, not CESA,” Shen said. “The association’s only power comes from the Communist Party.”
这种独立的民族精神推动着中国小轮车运动员,他们自力更生,对于政府越来越多地干预这些需要他们激情和技能的大众运动没有了太多耐心。沈说,“是我们车手创作了这个团队,而不是协会。协会的唯一动力来自共产党。”

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发表于 2011-8-19 18:26 | 显示全部楼层
总有问题的。
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发表于 2011-8-19 20:12 | 显示全部楼层
糟糕的体制让中国在北京奥运会上把美国从坐了多年的金牌第一的宝座上掀翻了,如果伦敦奥运会上美国连奖牌第一也保不住,岂不是更糟糕?
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发表于 2011-8-19 21:16 | 显示全部楼层
比体制更可怕的是他们意识不到举国体制的不足甚至错误,反而在宣扬其正确性,向人们灌输唯有此方可拯救中国体育的思想。
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发表于 2011-8-20 03:22 | 显示全部楼层
一个完全商业化的体育,其实也是极丑恶极异端的体制和发展模式,那,早已背离了体育之内涵和实质。
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发表于 2011-8-20 06:11 | 显示全部楼层
这个。。。。我觉得也有点问题。要是把万恶的中国男足搞上去,我就觉得没问题了。可现实是。。。
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发表于 2011-8-20 11:19 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 柯察金 于 2011-8-20 11:22 编辑

首先关于张尚武这个事:陈一冰队长在其微博中说了一些媒体不愿意去报道的事,大家可以看看,往下翻一点即有 http://weibo.com/1838388131

张尚武除了近4万元的退役奖金,还有大运会的冠军奖金。他怎么花去了?超过6万元难道在2005年“连吃的和衣服都不够”?2005年我刚毕业,6万元是我在广州两年的年薪,他难道不能拿来干点什么?搞到去偷还要怪体制?

体操队长陈一冰对其评论的博客截图:
未命名.JPG

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发表于 2011-8-20 11:54 | 显示全部楼层
外因虽然影响也大,但决定性的是内因。
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发表于 2011-8-20 13:43 | 显示全部楼层
有些人只看到个李娜的成功就想当然地认为这是“摆脱体制”的成果,难道摆脱体制了全民体育就上去了?体育成绩还要比当前好上数倍?他们想过没有,个人的训练场地,聘请教练,参加体育俱乐部和参赛门槛要花多少钱?普通人可以做到?没有国家队作为基石,个别“摆脱体制”的运动员能有家庭和社会支持?能有知名度和社会培养土壤?

并不是说国家的体育制度就很好,而是目前对于中国这是最好的。

  体育制度相对很公平:没有谁押着你去参加国家的体育队伍,是青少年自己去的,当然也有家长押着去的,也有四肢发达学习不行的学生去的,这一条对他们来说倒是很好,提供了不同的道路和人生选择嘛。更不用说从地方基层选拔来的本来家庭条件强困的人才。吃国家的用国家的,在体校里一样学知识学技能,不至于荒废人生。即使没有最后选拔入国家队,但是淘汰下来的可以做体育教师,可以做健身教练,可以留在队里当陪练,哪怕是像乒乓球这样实在过剩的还送出国外代表外国参赛呢,有何不可?
  你听说过什么国家队成员和冠军是搞腐败搞潜规则上去的?是富二代官二代继承的?冠军就是踩着万人上去的!当不了就是练得不够,这一条放之四海而皆准,当不了不是体制问题,你去到外国除了流汗流血的训练还要花大把的钱。在中国你要先有钱你还当冠军吗?你会自己花上几百万去训练去参加比赛吗?

  说到花我这纳税人的钱去培养冠军,至少我乐意。因为我内心像大部分中国人一样,希望看到中国的冠军和英雄,中国人需要榜样,而且喜欢看到自己人打败外国人,这和以前大家喜欢看黄飞鸿打洋人是一个道理。如果没有这样的体育机制,有几个李娜几个丁俊晖?能不能有他们都是个未知数!如果我们的国家像那个同为十几亿人口的邻国印度一样一个奥运会都拿不到一块金牌。那么那些整天鞭笞体制的人会怎么想?会怎么说?也许又是一脸哀其不幸怒其不争的精英嘴脸拷问国家哀叹为什么生在这个国家了吧。
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发表于 2011-8-20 18:45 | 显示全部楼层
LSD精辟,话说这些话题我也看多了
对此我总结了一点:做也不是,不做也不是。
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-8-20 19:29 | 显示全部楼层
柯察金 发表于 2011-8-20 13:43
有些人只看到个李娜的成功就想当然地认为这是“摆脱体制”的成果,难道摆脱体制了全民体育就上去了?体育成 ...

9L的同学学俄语的?
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发表于 2011-8-20 21:23 | 显示全部楼层
说不 发表于 2011-8-20 03:22
一个完全商业化的体育,其实也是极丑恶极异端的体制和发展模式,那,早已背离了体育之内涵和实质。 ...

一个完全商业化的社会,其实也是极丑恶极异端的体制和发展模式,那,早已背离了社会之内涵和实质。
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发表于 2011-8-21 12:55 | 显示全部楼层
:(举国体制有它的弊端,过去的成功经验,在现在国内越来越商业化的环境内,有些已经不适用了,比如足球、篮球、排球、网球等等,这些我们需要学习国外尤其是美国的经验,但不能因此从一个极端走向另一个极端,还是要互相结合才对!
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发表于 2011-8-21 13:25 | 显示全部楼层
柯察金 发表于 2011-8-20 13:43
有些人只看到个李娜的成功就想当然地认为这是“摆脱体制”的成果,难道摆脱体制了全民体育就上去了?体育成 ...

项庄舞剑,意在沛公。说的是中国体育体制,实际上是宣传中国政治体制的不合理与非正义。

看西方媒体这种文章,要看它们暗含的意思。
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发表于 2011-8-21 14:13 | 显示全部楼层
张尚武因多次违纪被国家队退回省队,接着又被省队开除,退役时不满意安排的工作,为了那点遣散费主动选择“自主择业”。现在倒打一耙,说体制亏待他,阻止他受教育,连遣散费金额都撒谎!这样一个败类竟成了“受害者”?!
张尚武曾为北体大学生 因违纪被取消学籍http://www.zhong5.cn/article-190434-1.html
曝张尚武在省队多次违纪 曾去八一体操队盗窃http://sports.cn.yahoo.com/ypen/20110719/477347.html
“卖艺”前体操运动员张尚武多次违纪调回省队http://news.sohu.com/20110719/n313802864.shtml


关于李娜,她的成功就是偶然+运气。年纪这么大了,又没有举国体制提供的优势资源和稳定环境,她怎么可能再续辉煌?当初央视大捧李娜时本人就觉得十分厌恶,更有一些政府部门既发奖金又授荣誉的更加令人恶心。事实也证明,法网冠军之后,李娜的成绩一天不如一天:
辛辛那提赛李娜五连败斯托瑟 无缘女单八强http://sports.qq.com/a/20110819/000025.htm
李娜罗杰斯杯首秀惨败 场边坐着似乎失落http://sports.sohu.com/20110812/n316130991.shtml

不过,本人也十分反对“冠军至上”的体育体制。与其倾国之力培养几个装点门面的“体育精英”,不如实行“全民体育”方针,增强全民族人民体质!




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发表于 2011-8-21 14:17 | 显示全部楼层
这样的烂文章还翻译过来,真是浪费精力!{:soso_e119:}
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发表于 2011-8-22 10:41 | 显示全部楼层
扭腰时报还是一如既往的会“选图”啊
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发表于 2011-8-25 20:13 | 显示全部楼层
什麽都有利弊,沒必要揪住一些陰暗的東西不放。西方人還是太傲慢了,總以為自己是世界的中心,別人都要跟他一樣才行~
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