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[精彩辩论] AC 海外网友 沈先生与西人的精彩辩论

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发表于 2008-8-25 00:16 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
继 Mr. James Shen 发布了他剖析西方主流媒体的文章“Blemishing China Marathon" 后,有一位美国人对文章提出不少异议,就此沈先生也写了一篇回应,并引发了一些新的议题。现在AC 发布如下,欢迎更多的网友参与讨论!

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Please, Let’s not get too excited when the West is criticized



Response to Joe’s criticisms on my article “Mainstream Western media stages Blemishing China Marathon” at www.Chination.com

Thank you, Joe, for your patience to read my article “Mainstream Western media stages Blemishing China Marathon” and your criticisms.

You were right to point out some quotation discrepancies. Indeed, there are different versions of translations for the saying of Confucius (己所不欲,勿施于人), and I agree that your version of translation is more suitable in the context of this article. Also you mentioned about the biblical source of “let he who is not sin cast the first stone”. Again there are multiple sources including John 8:1-11, Matthew 7:12 in the Bible citing this criticism of Jesus on Pharisees. I have updated my article to reflect your suggestions. Thank you for helping me improve this article.

However, I have to say you have misread some parts of my article and I feel obliged to clarify and respond.   

I do know Barack Obama is not a Muslim or the anti-Christ and I cited media reports of these lies to show how some Western media would like us to believe them despite how obvious the truths are. For the record, I happen to be an Obama supporter.

I also happen to know very well what cannibal or cannibalism is. While my English may or may not be as good as yours, I certainly is much better than the Chinese of most, if not all, Westerners living in China.

Your comments seem to suggest that I was advocating for the official Chinese media, but if you read my article carefully then you realize I was only hoping that there were more positive coverage on China by the mainstream Western media so that people who do want to see some positive developments in China do not have to rely exclusively on the official media.

It was also indicated that I do not know what is going on in China. I don’t know where that came from, but let me tell you I spend at least three months in China each year, work with ordinary Chinese employees routinely, has a blog in Chinese where I share thoughts with Chinese bloggers, read internet news in Chinese often, and has the experience of worshipping in house churches, government-approved churches and international churches in Beijing. Does that convince you that I may know just a little more than you or Western reporters about China?

However, I am particularly disappointed that you have repeatedly referred China and the Chinese government to me as “your country” and “your government” in the comments despite my statement in my article that I am a Chinese American and a naturalized American citizen. For your information, my government is the US government and I am electing a new president in November. Regardless how some Americans would like to discriminate or prejudice against my ethnicity and race, I refuse to give up my rights as an American and no one can take away my pride as a patriotic American with Chinese heritage.

Indeed, the rights of minorities in America have improved dramatically in the past 50 years. But by no means has racism submerged in today’s Western societies. While you may wish to dispute it, my personal feeling is that racism and racial prejudices are simply taking new forms, and racial tension is growing in political, social-economic, legal and cultural arenas in Western countries. Your own assumption that I, a Chinese American, am somehow an outsider serves to show the racial mindset of many.

Your criticized my citations of various political and social problems as well as foreign policy issues in the US and the West. You also implied explicitly that I am somehow ignorant about the foreign policies of “your country” although I clearly indicated in my article that I am a Chinese American who has lived here for 19 years and received advanced education in the West.

If studying, living and working in the UK and the US for 24 years does not qualify me to comment on the problems and politics of “your country” where I live, work, pay taxes and vote, why do you feel those Western journalists who have little or simply no living experience in China deserve to bash that country regularly for its policies and problems?

It is obvious you felt the discomfort of “your country” being criticized by an “outsider”, but please don’t get too excited about it – it is not good for your health – I learnt it from having to deal with similar discomfort every day.

Well, I have to admit my article was intended to give you and people in the West a taste of that discomfort in the hope you realize how we, as Americans with Chinese heritage, feel when China is pushed around by over-simplistic, ignorant and biased media reports routinely.

The point of my article is neither to criticize the West nor to enter into debates about race and international politics, but rather about "don’t do unto others what you don’t wish to do unto yourself" and “to live and let live”. It is obvious there are differences and disagreements between countries, races, religions, interest groups, if we focus too much on them, we can argue and fight forever and we all will never live in peace and a better world.

Lastly, you spoke about appointing a Uighur or Tibetan to the position of the Chinese premier. Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that Uighurs and Tibetans are well-represented in the governments of their respective autonomous regions. People from these two minorities also hold important positions, such as the Vice Chairman of the National People’s Congress, in the Chinese political system. Dalai Lama himself held an important position at CPPCC before rebelling in 1959.

As to a Uighur or Tibetan premier for China, I am quite hopeful you will see this happen by the time we have an American Indian as the President of the US.

With reference to the remarks that China does not allow Tibetans to read religious texts, I am surprised that you actually bought the story since you quickly pointed it out that Obama is not a Muslim. I have not been to Tibet, but at the least I do know there are many monasteries and monks in Tibet. If they don’t read religious texts in the monasteries, do they study and read English instead? No wonder the Western journalists can communicate with them so well.

Since you touched on the issue of minorities and minority regions in China, let me share another personal story with you to show where I am coming from. I have always wanted a big brother from very young. The fact is I do have a big brother but I hardly know him at all. He was a well-educated young man with a lot of future, but he responded to the callings of the government and volunteered to relocate from Beijing to Kashgar, Western Uighur in late 1960s to support the development there as a technician for the local frozen-meat factory. He passed away two years ago in Uighur at the young age of 59 due to various diseases associated with the hardship he endured there. Make no mistake about it, he is just one of the many many Han Chinese who volunteered to help Uighur and Tibet in the past fifty years. For whatever that is worth, they should and will be remembered by history.

……………………..

Finally, I apologize if I hurt your feelings in any way because it is not my intention to be mean. Wisdoms from the Bible and my Chinese heritage teach us to be more generous and not mean-spirited, but I guess we are all too weak when provoked. This is probably why the Chinese culture always call for harmony and avoidance of direct confrontations.

The Bible taught us "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God" (Matthew 5:9) and "...be at peace with one another" (Mark 9:49). Let me conclude by offering my reconciliations to you despite our disagreements. Let’s focus on our common values and interests rather than underscoring differences, and join hands in the hope of a better and more unified world.

If not anything else, for the sake of our children and their children!

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Joe’s comments on my article : Mainstream Western media stages “Blemishing China Marathon”


You should read more carefully. Barack Obama isn’t a Muslim. Confucius said that you shouldn’t do unto others as you would not want done to you. You might have been quoting Jesus in Matthew 7:12. I’m also not sure if you know what a cannibal is. Eating scorpions is only cannibalism if you are another scorpion.

In case people only like to read what Xinhua tells them or watch cctv, these same criticisms of China are available from Indian, Korean…media.

There are a plurality of sources for media in the West be they independent, not for profit, single issue, for profit, institutional, governmental, non-governmental, international. Also, almost every country has an English language paper which western viewers can read wherever the country is …Xinhua is a government mouthpiece.

To talk about CNN putting up phony pictures and praising Xinhua is a horrible hippocracy. Some of the pictures in Chinese papers are flat on their face fakes to the naked eye.

It is a huge step towards infantalism to believe what your government tells you time and time again. It is worse off to portray run of the mill propaganda as a positive Chinese trait.

It is a moot point to talk about other countries biases when you don’t even know what is going on in your own country. If people get news from official sources and foreign sources aren’t let in, then it is a monument to self deception for someone to think they know what is going on anywhere.

It is also absurd that you talk about racial tensions becoming worse in the last few decades in the US. Do you think the situation was really better in the 1930’s? The 1800’s? Even comparing the 1980’s to today, you believe racial tensions have increased?

I don’t agree with Bush on the vast majority of issues, I believe the war in Iraq was completely wrong and I do believe there is a lot of media bias towards China in General, but to show Western foreign policy as retrograde in the last few decades is not really sound either. While World war 1 killed more than 9 million people and World war 2 killed 50 million. Since then, however, the cold war resulted in the Korean War and Vietnam, but the total death tolls in both wars combined was less than half of World war 1’s.

Countries such as Japan and Germany were engaged as allies and enjoyed great leaps in prosperity, and stability instead of being humiliated and robbed. The US is unique in history of ending wars and leaving without family ties as in the old European system. Did Germany do this? Did England? Did Japan?

Past choices by China are the reason that it wasn’t the world’s richest country a long time ago. It’s allies as well as its fellow communist countries have also suffered economically. Chinese support for Burma has meant nothing but poverty and death for a nation bounding with minerals. Chinese support of Sudan, has left Arabs richer, but has meant that blacks are victims of genocide with Chinese weapons or being pushed into deserts to die. Chinese Weapons to Zimbabwe go to a dictator who has completely ruined his country’s economy and killed his own people…

To bring up this lovely 5,000 years is really to look past the fact that the country itself is less than 50 years old and that large swaths of it are regions of other groups such as in Xinjiang. If you want to talk about a Chinese way in reference to the country, then why not make an Uighur or Tibetan premier and then prove how unified you are instead of sending a bunch of han to live in their regions and not letting them read their religious texts?


[ 本帖最后由 Nicolle 于 2008-8-26 01:00 编辑 ]
 楼主| 发表于 2008-8-25 00:17 | 显示全部楼层

【译文】

【鸣谢】  感谢AC志愿编译组 erihao,liuyi99, livia, dakelv 提供翻译和校正!

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当西方受到批评时,请让我们别太激动


回复乔伊在www.chination.com上对《主流西方媒上演污蔑中国的马拉松》一文的批评。

乔伊,感谢你耐心的读《主流西方媒上演污蔑中国的马拉松》一文并提出批评。

你正确的指出了某些引文的矛盾之处。确实,对于孔子的“己所不欲,勿施于人”有不同版本的翻译,而且我认为你的翻译版本对于此文的语境更为合适。你同时也提到了“让无罪之人投第一块石头”在《圣经》上的出处。而这句耶稣批评伪善者的话在《圣经》中也多次出现,包括《约翰福音》第一章第一节和《马太福音》第七章第12节。我已经更新了我的文章来反映你的建议。感谢你帮助我改进此文。

尽管如此,我不得不说你误读了此文的某些部分,而我有必要做出澄清和回应。

我的确知道巴拉克、奥巴马不是一个穆斯林信徒或反基督教人士,我引用这条媒体谎言目的在于:显示某些西方媒体希望我们相信这些鬼话而不论事实如何。我郑重声明,本人是奥巴马的支持者。

我也很清楚“食人者”和“食人癖”是什么。尽管我的英语或许不如你好,但是我很确定比大多数中国人或在中国生活的西方人要好的多(如果不是全部话)。

你的评论好像暗示我在替中国官方媒体做宣传,但是如果你仔细读我的文章就会发现,我只不过是希望主流西方媒体对中国进行更多的正面报道,这样人们无需完全依赖官方媒体就能够看到一些中国发生的积极进步。

评论中你指出我不知道中国正发生些什么。我不知道你是怎么得出这个结论的,但是我告诉你我每年在中国要呆上三个月;日常工作也同普通的中国雇员在一起;在中国有自己的博客并同中国博客写手一起工作;经常阅读中文网上新闻;而且曾在北京地下教堂、官方教堂和国际化教堂做过祷告。这些经历能使你相信我比你或是那些西方记者更了解中国么?

尽管我在文章中声明我是一个华裔美国人并且是合法的美国公民,但是你一再将中国和中国政府当作是“你的国家”和“你的政府”,我对此尤其失望。谨奉告你,我的政府是美国政府并且我在11月将为总统大选投票。无论某些美国人对我的种族如何歧视和带有偏见,我拒绝放弃作为一个美国人的权力,而且任何人无权剥夺我作为一个具有中国文化传统的美国人的尊严。

在过去的50年,美国少数族裔的权利确实有显著改善。但是西方社会的种族主义绝对没有消亡。尽管你可能会就此反驳我,但我个人的感觉是种族主义和种族歧视不过是采取了新的形式,并且不同种族间的紧张对立正在西方国家的政治、社会经济、法律和文化等领域不断加深。而你的假设是,我作为一个华裔美国人在某种程度上正表达种族情绪。

你对我指责美国和西方的政治、社会问题和外交政策提出了批评。尽管我明确的指出我是一个华裔美国人,在那里住了19年并在西方接受高等教育,但你仍然明显的暗示我对于“你们国家”外交政策的无知。

如果在英国和美国学习、生活并工作了24年,仍然使我不具备资格评价这个我生活、交税和参与选举的“你的国家”的社会问题和政策,为什么你认为那些只有很少或没有生活经验的西方记者有权经常苛责中国的政治和社会问题?

很明显,当一个“外人”批评“你的国家”时,你感觉不快。但请你不要因此太过激动——这对你的健康不好——通过每天都要应对这种不快,我早就清楚了这一点。

我必需承认,我写这篇文章就是要给你和西方人某种不快的感觉,目的是为了让你们意识到:当这些过于简单化、无知和偏颇的媒体侮辱中国时,我们这些具有中国文化传统的美国人感觉是什么。

我文章的核心观点既不是批评西方也不是要参与种族和国际政治的论战,而是“己所不欲、勿施于人”和“待人宽, 人亦待己宽 ”。显然,国家、种族、宗教、利益集团之间有许多分歧和矛盾,如果太过强调这些,我们将永远争斗下去并且世界也永无安宁。

最后,你提出任命维吾尔人和藏族人担任中国总理一职。也许你不清楚这样一个事实:维吾尔族人和藏族人由其各自的自治区政府所充分代表。这两个少数民族的人也担任过重要职位,例如在中国的政治体系中担任人民代表大会副主席。达赖喇嘛自己在1559年叛乱之前也曾在中国人民政治协商会议全国委员会中担任重要职位。

就维吾尔人和藏族人担任总理的问题,我十分期待你能在美国的印第安人当选美国总统之前看到这一幕发生。

至于中国不允许藏族人读经文的问题,我很惊异于你提到这件事,因为你指出奥巴马不是穆斯林信徒。我没有到过西藏,但是至少我确切的知道在西藏有许多寺庙和僧侣。如果他们在寺庙里不能读经文,那他们是在学英语么?难怪西方记者能够这么容易和他们沟通。

因为你提到了少数民族和少数民族地区的问题,那么让我通过与你分享另一个个人经历来告诉你我来自何处。从小我一直想要一个哥哥。事实上我还真有一个哥哥,但是我几乎不认识他。他是一个受过良好教育、前途光明的年轻人,但是上世纪60年代末他响应政府的号召,自愿从北京来到喀什(一个西部维吾尔族聚居地),作为一个肉食品冷冻厂的技术员支持当地的建设。因为饱受艰辛而疾病缠身,两年前他仅仅59岁就在维吾尔族自治区过世了。不要误会,他只是过去五十年中许多自愿去帮助维吾尔族及藏族的汉族人中的一员。无论这么做的意义何在,他们将被历史铭记。

... ... ... ...

最后,如果在某些方面我伤了你的感情,我要表示抱歉,我并无冒犯之意。来自于《圣经》和本人中国传统文化中的智慧教导我要更加慷慨大度,而不是睚眦必报,但我想当我们被激怒时都太脆弱了。这可能是为什么中国文化总是提倡和谐而避免正面冲突。

《圣经》教导我们说“使人和睦的人有福了,因为他们必称为神之子”(《马太福音》5:9)以及“和睦相处”(《马可福音》9:49)。请允许我与你和解,忘记我们的争执。让我们专注于共同的价值与利益而不是分歧,为了一个更为美好而又彼此相连的世界携起手来。

如果不为其他目的,那就为了我们的孩子和他们的孩子吧。

[ 本帖最后由 Nicolle 于 2008-8-28 01:17 编辑 ]
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发表于 2008-8-25 00:38 | 显示全部楼层
翻译下
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【版主提示】您的跟帖基本属于灌水行为,因为沙发位已提示翻译工作进行中。烦请下次注意,谢谢!

[ 本帖最后由 Nicolle 于 2008-8-25 00:50 编辑 ]
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发表于 2008-8-25 00:54 | 显示全部楼层
晕我只看主楼主的,没看下面,这也说灌水了,郁闷ing.....
===================================================================
【版主提示】呵呵,所以重在提醒,并未有任何“处罚”处理,下次注意看帖子就是啦 :)

[ 本帖最后由 Nicolle 于 2008-8-25 01:43 编辑 ]
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发表于 2008-8-25 08:54 | 显示全部楼层
毕竟不是母语,看起来太累了,还是等翻译吧……
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发表于 2008-8-25 16:35 | 显示全部楼层
很好啊,某些西方的记者根本就没有到过西藏就胡说!
歪曲事实!
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发表于 2008-8-25 18:22 | 显示全部楼层
真不错的文章。
从这篇文章,我觉得中国13亿人口,要是有3亿在国外生活或者工作,那这世界就和谐没有争战了。不管是人权、民主、土地、民族、党派.................................................
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发表于 2008-8-25 23:59 | 显示全部楼层
崇拜作者
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发表于 2008-8-26 04:51 | 显示全部楼层
[译文]

网友joe对《主流西方媒上演污蔑中国的马拉松》的评论

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感谢livia、elpeggy和dakelv的翻译和校正
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你应该阅读的更仔细一点儿 。 巴拉克·奥巴马并不是一名穆斯林教徒。孔子的原话是,已所不欲,勿施于人。你引用的也许是在“马太福音”第七章第12节中耶酥所说的话。(马太福音7:12:所以无论何事,你们愿意人怎样待你们,你们也要怎样待人。因为这就是律法和先知的道理。)同样地,但我也不确定你是否知道什么是食人族。 如果你是另一只蝎子的话, 吃蝎子也是同类相残

要是人民只喜欢看新华社或是cctv的新闻, 那么我想提醒一下对中国的批判,也完全可能来自印度、韩国等媒体。(意即:像印度、韩国这样的“民主”国家完全可能和西方媒体一样批判中国)

西方媒体的消息来源非常的广泛, 独立的、非营利的、单党派的、商业的、机构背景的、政府背景的、非政府的、国际性的。 同样的,几乎每个国家都有让西方读者能够读懂的英文报刊,无论这个国家在哪儿。但是新华社则却是政府的传话筒。

一方面谈论CNN发表伪造的图片,而另一方面却对新华社大加赞赏这是非常虚伪的行为。在中国报纸上有些图片用肉眼一看就知道是假的。

相信政府不断告诉你的那些事情,就是大步走向幼稚和无知。而更糟糕的是,还要将这种平庸的宣传形式描述成中国的一大优点。


倘若人们无法真正了解自己国家正在发生什么,还硬要说其他国家对自己存有偏见,这样做实在是没有任何意义。如果其他消息来源全部被切断,而人们只能从官方渠道获取消息, 那么长此以往人们就只能自欺欺人的以为自己知晓了所有地方发生的一切事情。

更可笑的是你谈到美国这几十年来种族间的紧张对立关系愈加严峻。你真的认为30年代的情况会比现在更好些么?或者是十九世纪的时候呢?再或者与80年代至今相比, 你还认为这种种族对立的情形更加严重了么?

布什提出过众多议题,但是大部分我都是不赞成的。由始至终我都相信伊拉克战争是错误之举,我也相信,很多媒体都对中国的报道是存有偏见的,然而, 把西方在过去几十年的外交政策说成是倒退也是不正确的。第一次世界大战夺去九百万的生命,二战死亡人数则有五千万。虽然此后的冷战导致了朝鲜战争和越南战争,但是这两次战争所导致的伤亡总数加起来也超不过一战的半数。


[ 本帖最后由 撒小丫 于 2008-8-26 04:53 编辑 ]
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发表于 2008-8-26 19:57 | 显示全部楼层
呵呵...LZ写得真棒...理直气壮得那么有风度!漂亮的收尾!!!
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发表于 2008-8-26 20:03 | 显示全部楼层
好长啊,终于看完了
美国华人真的不容易啊
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发表于 2008-8-26 20:51 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 撒小丫 于 2008-8-26 04:51 发表
[译文]

一方面谈论CNN发表伪造的图片,而另一方面却对新华社大加赞赏这是非常虚伪的行为。在中国报纸上有些图片用肉眼一看就知道是假的。

傻不拉挤的用脚趾头思考的直立动物,这个什么JOE你倒是找出哪张中国报纸能无耻到利用肆意伪造的图片来颠倒事实,以此来赤裸裸地诽谤和侮辱地球上13亿人口的恶劣行径吗,虚伪!你站在CNN的立场有什么资格谈虚伪!中国报纸再虚伪,跟你们都不是一个档次的
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发表于 2008-8-26 21:08 | 显示全部楼层
好文章啊,真是有理有据、有礼有节、不卑不亢!

5楼的签名太强了,呵呵,WC?太有才了
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发表于 2008-8-27 12:15 | 显示全部楼层
好~咱们就需要这样理性又不是分量的辩论!
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发表于 2008-8-27 15:16 | 显示全部楼层
如果在英国和美国学习、生活并工作了24年,仍然使我不具备资格评价这个我生活、交税和参与选举的“你的国家”的社会问题和政策,为什么你认为那些只有很少或没有生活经验的西方记者有权经常苛责中国的政治和社会问题?
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发表于 2008-8-28 04:00 | 显示全部楼层
中国的媒体 只报喜 不报忧   不象你们伪造
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发表于 2008-8-28 14:07 | 显示全部楼层
这文章好  要顶!
joe之流,容得你们的诽谤,就容不得我们的批评拉?什么狭隘的心理啊?
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发表于 2008-8-28 14:48 | 显示全部楼层

有一处不妥

请楼主转告James网友,他在下面一段中用Uighur当地名非常不妥。那片地方从来没叫过Uighur,我想你在翻译是也注意到了。其实清朝的新疆叫法不好,应该用汉代的西域更准确。希望有人大代表提议。

Since you touched on the issue of minorities and minority regions in China, let me share another personal story with you to show where I am coming from. I have always wanted a big brother from very young. The fact is I do have a big brother but I hardly know him at all. He was a well-educated young man with a lot of future, but he responded to the callings of the government and volunteered to relocate from Beijing to Kashgar, Western Uighur in late 1960s to support the development there as a technician for the local frozen-meat factory. He passed away two years ago in Uighur at the young age of 59 due to various diseases associated with the hardship he endured there. Make no mistake about it, he is just one of the many many Han Chinese who volunteered to help Uighur and Tibet in the past fifty years. For whatever that is worth, they should and will be remembered by history.
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发表于 2008-8-28 15:18 | 显示全部楼层
好文章要顶!!
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发表于 2008-8-29 02:47 | 显示全部楼层
写得很好,有理有利有节。或者从语气上不能准确的反映我们内心里的愤懑,但是作为与西方人人沟通的一种尝试,或者这样的态度而非他们对我们的态度更能让他们接受。
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