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发表于 2009-11-5 03:39
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加州理工学院院长李-杜布里奇1981年接受采访,讲述钱学森
本帖最后由 rlsrls08 于 2009-11-5 03:46 编辑
钱学森曾经被关押在移民局拘留所,由于这位加州理工学院的院长的帮忙,钱得以被释放。
ZT from http://tigerhead06.blog.sohu.com/135574738.html and http://oralhistories.library.caltech.edu/68/
INTERVIE: Lee Alvin DuBridge talks about Hsue-Shen Tsien
Lee Alvin DuBridge (Part II)
(1901-1993)
INTERVIEWED BY JUDITH R. GOODSTEIN
February 20, 1981
ARCHIVES
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
Pasadena, California
Subject area
Physics, administration
Abstract
Physicist Lee A. DuBridge becamepresident of the California Institute of Technology in 1946. Inthis interview he recalls his dealings at Caltech with Linus Pauling; hismemories of George W. Beadle, Theodore von Kármán, and J. Robert Oppenheimer;the military Vista Project at Caltech; andthe difficulties surrounding the deportation of Hsue-shen Tsien, Caltech’sGoddard Professor of Jet Propulsion.Administrative information Access
GOODSTEIN: Let me ask you about [Hsue-Shen] Tsien.
DUBRIDGE: Oh, Tsien was such a marvelous guy. He had been here before the war[1938-1946]. I didn’t know him then. He had been in great demand during the waron variousaeronautic and jet propulsion projects. He was as prominent as vonKármán was. He was a real protégé of von Kármán—mutual admiration as far as Icould tell, between them. After the war, he went to M.I.T. as professor ofaeronautics for three years. Then Harry F. Guggenheim decided to finance tworesearch centers for aeronautics, one at Princetonand one at Caltech. And for each one there would be a Robert H. GoddardProfessorship of Jet Propulsion, and there would be financing for an expandedprogram in modern aeronautics, jet propulsion, supersonic flight, and all therest of it. Both Princeton and Caltech wantedTsien to be the Goddard professor, and we won. He came back here, to our greatpleasure. He fitted in so beautifully and was so imaginative and so effective,and so at ease, and respected by the faculty. He was a fine faculty member. Andthen he came in to see me one day [in 1950] and said, “You know I have someelderly parents in China.I
Fig 7. Hsue-Shen Tsien, undatedphotograph.
Caltech Archives.
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haven’t seen them for a long time. Of course it wasn’t possible to go backduring the war, but I can probably get back there now. And I would just like totake a leave.” I said, “How long?” He said, “Well, I really don’t know how longI want to stay with them. It depends on my parents’ health. But a few monthsanyway.” And I said, “Of course, you can have a leave of absence.” So he made the arrangements perfectly openly and he told us all aboutit. Well, someone spoke to Dan Kimball, who was then assistant secretary of thenavy, saying that Tsien was going to make a visit back to China. Dansaid, “Oh, no, we shouldn’t let him go to China.”
You know, Chinawas not our best friend. Tsien obviously knew a lot, and Dan Kimball felt thatit was a little risky for him, Tsien, and for the U.S.to have Tsien back in China.Well, I didn’t feel that way. I trusted Tsien enough to know that he wasn’tgoing to take along a lot of his papers to work on, some of his aeronauticaltheoretical work. Well, the trouble is that somebody took Dan Kimball’s remarkseriously and said, “We’ve got to stop him.” How were they going to stop him?Well, the way they found out to stop him was to charge him with having been aCommunist. They found there was a little Communist group here in the thirties.
GOODSTEIN: I’ve heard that said before.
DUBRIDGE: I don’t know who was in it. But there was a little group here, asthere were at many universities back in the Depression days. They said thatthere must be a better economic system, and maybe the Russians had found it.Tsien’s version of his association with that group was as follows. When thischarge was first brought up, he came in to me and said, “I don’t understandthis.” And I said, “Well, did you have any connections with a Communist group?”And he said, “Well, there was a group of people here that had socialgatherings. When I came over to this country, a stranger, two or three of theseCaltech people invited me to their house for a little social gathering and I went several times.” He said, “I guess there was sometalk about politics; but it was mostly just talk about general things, and Iregarded them as purely social events. I certainly didn’t sign up in any waywith any Communist Party. And I didn’t even remember the word ‘communist’ beingmentioned at these affairs.” But somebody had written down on a piece of paperthe names of the people who had attended one of these meetings, and this waslater brought into evidence. I think there was a typewritten list, and over atthe side was written “Tsien.” Well, that killed him. He had been back to China oncebefore [1947] and returned to this country. And apparently the standard procedure whenyou came back to this country was to answer the question, “Have you ever beenor are you now a member of the Communist Party?” And of course, he wrote “No.”So the charge was perjury—that he had been a member of this Communist group butwhen he reentered the country he had said he had not been.
GOODSTEIN: And the evidence was this list?
DUBRIDGE: Yes.
GOODSTEIN: Did you see the list?
DUBRIDGE: I saw a copy of it. It was put in evidence at his hearings. So he wasarrested and his baggage was seized, with his papers and everything else. Andthe customs or immigration officer said that there was a lot of “very highlytechnical material”—implying that it was secret material.
GOODSTEIN: Was that the first word you had of what was going to happen—whenthey arrested him?
DUBRIDGE: I had heard that there were some rumblings about Dan Kimball’s remarkthat he ought not to go. But I didn’t think they would really move on it. When[he was getting ready to leave], everything seemed to be all right. When we gotword of his arrest, that was the first time I heard of it—he called somebodyhere. They put him in a detention center in San Pedro, where we visited him. Hehad a little cubicle, a room, that was perfectly comfortable. It wasn’t ajail—but it was a detention center. He had a room and a desk and a light and abed and so on. But for him to be detained that way was a terrible blow tohim—to his ego, his self-respect. Here he thought he’d served this country sowell, which he had, and then to be treated in this way….It made him,eventually, very bitter. Well, Clark Millikan and I visited him often, talkedwith all the people we could think of.
GOODSTEIN: Did you talk to Kimball at that time?
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DUBRIDGE: Clark certainly did. I don’tremember whether I saw Dan or not. Dan was also shocked. He said, “Well, Ididn’t mean that he should be arrested, you know. That’s terrible! He’s noCommunist. There’s no reason for detaining him.” He was irate at the action ofthe Immigration Service—and I think very angry that his passing remark had beentaken seriously, and that there hadn’t been some other way to persuade Tsien not to go. MaybeDan thought I should have persuaded him not to go—I don’t know. Anyway, it wasa sad event. I visited Tsien a couple of times down there and just talked tohim, to get his reflections about it. They finally put him on parole and hecame back to Pasadena. But he could not leave Los Angeles County without permission. And he was put on parole under the supervision ofClark Millikan, who had to swear that he would report if Tsien left the county.It was a very humiliating experience. But finally the parole was lifted and hewent back to China anyway [1955].
Then he became a very bitter anti-U.S. man. Recently Caltech decided to offerTsien the Alumni Award, and he said he could not come. He wrote to Frank Marbleand said, “The reason I can’t come is because I’m still under a deportationorder. If I were to come back to the United States, I would assume that thatdeportation order would be brought out, and I would be excluded. So I don’twant to get into trouble. I would like to come back. I would like to visit.”
Marble sent me a copy of the letter and said, “What can we do about this?”Thisis just a few weeks ago. The only thing I could think to do was to write FrankPress [science advisor to President Carter]. Frank Press then wrote to me inreply, saying he was interested to hear about this and he would get somebody atwork on it promptly—but of course he left [the White House] January 1st, and Idon’t know what’s happened since.
GOODSTEIN: Was Tsien framed? Do you think it was a real piece of paper with areal list of people?
Frank E. Marble, now Hayman Professor of Mechanical Engineering and professorof jet propulsion, emeritus, was Tsien’s friend and closest associate atCaltech.
The award was hand-carried to China some twenty years later, in December 2001,by Frank Marble, who presented it to Tsien on behalf of Caltech
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DUBRIDGE: Yes. I had no reason to doubt it, because wefound out during the McCarthy days that two or three Caltech graduate studentsand others were involved. It was really a small Communist group. And some ofthe people later admitted it. But I do believe Tsien when he said that he didnot regard this as joining the Communist Party. He was a lonesome stranger in this country, and to be welcomed by this nice group of people among the Caltechfamily and some people around town, I think….He said he had fine times at thesenice social gatherings, never dreaming that he was involved in anythingimproper. “Framed” is not the right word; I think it was just a series ofmisunderstandings and overreactions.
GOODSTEIN: Did the trustees become very upset about Tsien? They were upsetabout Pauling. The business with Tsien happened in the same time period.
DUBRIDGE: Yes. I suppose that the ones who didn’t like Pauling also believedthe charges against Tsien. I remember telling the trustees about it—that we hadlooked into it and that we were convinced that he did not belong to thisCommunist group but was associated with some of them, as a lot of people were.I don’t recall any vigorous remarks among the trustees about it. Some of them,I know, felt that [the way he was treated] was a shame. Some of them cooperatedwith us in seeing whether we could do something about it. But I suppose some ofthem thought,“Well, if he’s a Communist, then let’s just put him over in Chinaagain.”
GOODSTEIN: Well, they certainly produced a very ardent Chinese Communist as aresult.
DUBRIDGE: That’s right.
http://oralhistories.library.caltech.edu/68/01/OH_DuBridge_2.pdf
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