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狮城律师:邓玉娇如果在新加坡不可能被免刑

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发表于 2009-6-21 14:39 | 显示全部楼层
accountant:

我还有别的案例,我明天发给你。我需要睡觉了。 BYE-BYE
jshi6210 发表于 2009-6-21 13:53


你先看看这个案例.

The People had the burden of establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that defendant had not acted in self-defense.

The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable."

If the jury had a reasonable doubt on the issue the jury must acquit.

[url=]2007 Cal. App. Unpub. LEXIS 5039, *[/url]

THE PEOPLE, Plaintiff and Respondent, v. BERTRAN LEE WILSON, Defendant and Appellant.
B190290
COURT OF APPEAL OF CALIFORNIA, SECOND APPELLATE DISTRICT, DIVISION FOUR
2007 Cal. App. Unpub. LEXIS 5039

June 22, 2007, Filed
[url=]NOTICE:[/url] NOT TO BE PUBLISHED IN OFFICIAL REPORTS. CALIFORNIA RULES OF COURT, RULE 8.1115(a), PROHIBITS COURTS AND PARTIES FROM CITING OR RELYING ON OPINIONS NOT CERTIFIED FOR PUBLICATION OR ORDERED PUBLISHED, EXCEPT AS SPECIFIED BY RULE 8.1115(B). THIS OPINION HAS NOT BEEN CERTIFIED FOR PUBLICATION OR ORDERED PUBLISHED FOR THE PURPOSES OF RULE 8.1115.

[url=]PRIOR HISTORY:[/url]  [*1]
APPEAL from a judgment of the Superior Court of Los Angeles County, No. BA279262. Rand S. Rubin, Judge.

[url=]DISPOSITION:[/url] Reversed.


[url=]CORE TERMS:[/url] self-defense, reasonable doubt, burden of proof, living room, assault, knife, burden of proving, bodily injury, jury's question, use of force, disprove, deadly weapon, defense counsel, prosecutor's, incomplete, misleading, stabbing, bag, key issue, closing argument, bedroom, cocaine, kitchen, couch, reasonably believed, reasonably necessary, imminent danger, burden to prove, deliberation, correctly


COUNSEL: James M. Crawford, under appointment by the Court of Appeal, for Defendant and Appellant.

Edmund G. Brown, Jr., Attorney General, Dane R. Gillette, Chief Assistant Attorney General, Pamela C. Hamanaka, Assistant Attorney General, Theresa A. Patterson and Rama R. Maline, Deputy Attorneys General, for Plaintiff and Respondent.

JUDGES: WILLHITE, J.; EPSTEIN, P.J., SUZUKAWA, J. concurred.

[url=]OPINION BY:[/url] WILLHITE


[url=]OPINION[/url]


INTRODUCTION


Using a butcher knife, defendant Bertran Wilson eviscerated his roommate Steven Traylor. The People prosecuted defendant for attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon or by means of force likely to produce great bodily injury. The People further alleged that defendant had personally used a deadly weapon and inflicted great bodily injury. At trial, the key issue was whether defendant acted in self-defense. Both men testified to their respective versions of the events; both were impeached by inconsistent statements and contradictory evidence.

In instructing the jury, the trial court correctly defined the elements of self-defense: at the time of the crime, the defendant must reasonably  [*2] believe that he is in imminent danger of suffering bodily injury; the defendant must reasonably believe that immediate use of force is necessary to defend against the danger; and the defendant must use no more force than is reasonably necessary for his defense. The court also correctly told the jury, pursuant to CALJIC No. 9.00, that the People had the burden of establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that defendant had not acted in self-defense. In closing argument, however, the prosecutor incorrectly stated that it was the defense burden to establish self-defense.

During deliberations, the jury asked for clarification as to which party bore the burden of proof on the issue of self-defense and what that evidentiary burden was. The trial court's response first directed the jury to review the pattern instructions about self-defense. These instructions did not explain the burden of proof. Next, the court gave the following instruction on the prosecution's burden: "The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable." The court did not inform the jury that the People also had the burden of proving that the defendant's use  [*3] of force was not in self-defense, and that if the jury had a reasonable doubt on the issue the jury must acquit. Very shortly thereafter, the jury found defendant guilty of assault and found the two enhancement allegations to be true. (The jury acquitted defendant of the attempted murder charge.)

On this appeal, defendant contends that the trial court's response to the jury's question requires reversal. We agree. The trial court's incomplete response was misleading. It informed the jury only that the prosecution had the burden of proving that defendant used unreasonable force. Although this response was correct insofar as it went, it failed to inform the jury that the prosecution also had the burden of proof on the other elements of self-defense - i.e., whether defendant reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of suffering bodily injury, and whether defendant reasonably believed that immediate use of force was necessary to defend against the danger. The response thereby left the impression that defendant bore the burden of proof on those issues, and permitted the jury to convict if it concluded that defendant had not met that burden.

We cannot say that this error was harmless  [*4] beyond a reasonable doubt. The parties framed self-defense as the key issue. The record contains evidence from which a properly instructed jury could entertain a reasonable doubt about whether defendant acted in self-defense. We therefore conclude that the trial court's error in answering the jury's inquiry with an incomplete and misleading statement about the burden of proof was prejudicial. Accordingly, we reverse the judgment.

STATEMENT OF FACTS


1. The Prosecution's Case-in-Chief

Defendant, Steven Traylor (the victim), and Gregory Swanson shared a house together. Defendant slept on the couch in the living room; Traylor and Swanson each had his own bedroom.

Swanson did not witness the stabbing but did testify to his earlier interactions with defendant on the day in question, February 23, 2005. According to Swanson, defendant arrived home around 6:00 p.m. He had been drinking heavily. Defendant, who carried knives on a daily basis, had three butcher knives in his pants. Swanson explained that defendant normally laid the knives out next to him before he went to sleep. For approximately two hours, defendant initiated hostile and incoherent arguments with Swanson but no physical confrontation  [*5] occurred. 1 During this time, Traylor remained in his room. Around 8:00 p.m., Swanson retired to his bedroom.

FOOTNOTES

1 When defendant testified, he denied that he had arrived home at 6:00 p.m. and that he had had these arguments with Swanson.


Traylor testified that he encountered defendant at approximately 10:00 p.m. He (Traylor) had drunk three or four cans of beer earlier that day, between noon and 4:00 p.m. 2 Traylor, conceding that he used crack cocaine on a regular basis, testified that he had not smoked any that day and that he was not drunk when defendant later stabbed him. 3

FOOTNOTES

2 In contrast, Swanson testified that Traylor started drinking after 6:00 p.m.

3 As will be set forth later, the defense impeached Traylor's testimony on this issue. An expert testified that Traylor had ingested cocaine the day of the stabbing and had a .11 blood alcohol level. In rebuttal, Swanson testified that Traylor did not appear to be "high" "on cocaine" the night of the stabbing.


According to Traylor, defendant began cussing at him for no reason. Traylor yelled back at defendant and then went to the kitchen where he had been cooking tacos with a fork. Defendant remained in the adjacent living room and continued  [*6] to yell at Traylor. The lights were on in both the kitchen and the living room. Traylor came out of the kitchen and yelled a profanity at defendant who was lying on the couch. Traylor was not carrying a fork or any other object and made no threatening gestures. Suddenly, defendant sat up and, in a quick swinging motion, stabbed Traylor in the stomach. As a result, Traylor's intestines came out of his body. Traylor yelled: "[Defendant] cut my guts out." Traylor never saw the knife.

Swanson, who had been in his bedroom during the altercation, heard Traylor's cry and came to the living room. Swanson saw the eviscerated Traylor bleeding heavily. Defendant was seated on the couch. Defendant calmly placed some items in a bag and left without saying anything.

Swanson immediately telephoned 911. Within five minutes, the police and the paramedics arrived. Swanson told the police that defendant had stabbed Traylor and had left their home on foot. The police sent out a radio broadcast of defendant's physical description. Within 15 minutes, Los Angeles Police Officer Hugh Ogara saw defendant walking down the street, carrying a white plastic bag. The officer arrested him. Defendant's left hand was  [*7] bloody and there was a half-inch cut on his left thumb. The officer opened the plastic bag and found a bloody knife.

2. The Defense Case

Defendant testified and claimed he had stabbed Traylor in self-defense.

According to defendant, he arrived home at approximately 10:00 p.m. on the evening of the stabbing. He was drunk. 4 Defendant began to watch television in the living room which also served as his bedroom. Traylor left his room and began walking back and forth through the living room, going to either the kitchen or the bathroom. Defendant thought that Traylor had used cocaine because he could not stay still. Defendant and Traylor had several profane arguments because Traylor's constant movements blocked defendant's view of the television. Defendant eventually turned the television off and laid down on the couch to go to sleep. Traylor continued to pace back and forth through the living room. The living room was dark, with the only light coming from the adjacent kitchen and bedroom. 5 In an angry tone, Traylor twice taunted defendant: "Call me a punk again, now just call me a punk again." Defendant, who was lying on the couch, replied: "Okay, then, punk." Traylor came at defendant  [*8] with a shiny metal object. 6 Defendant put his hand up to protect himself. Traylor cut defendant's left hand between the thumb and forefinger, causing it to bleed. Instinctively acting to protect himself, defendant picked up the nearby butcher knife and swung it around "to keep [Traylor] from attacking [him] again." Traylor fell to his knees, exclaiming that defendant had cut him. Defendant, in shock, dropped the knife and replied: "Hang on, you had cut me." Defendant put on his clothes, placed some personal items into his bag, and left the house. Defendant opined that the butcher knife had fallen into the bag when he had dropped it. Defendant left because he was afraid he would go to jail.

FOOTNOTES

4 The pattern instructions about voluntary intoxication and its relationship to general and specific intent crimes were submitted to the jury. (CALJIC Nos. 4.20, 4.21, 4.21.1, 4.22.)

5 In rebuttal, Swanson testified that the lights were on in living room when he entered after hearing Traylor scream.

6 In his trial testimony, defendant never identified that object. The police did not find such any such object in the living room.


In addition to defendant's testimony, the defense presented expert testimony  [*9] that Traylor had used cocaine shortly before the stabbing and that Traylor's blood alcohol level was .11

3. The Prosecution's Rebuttal Case

The prosecution offered evidence that defendant had given conflicting versions of the stabbing to the police after his arrest.

First, Officer Ogara testified he interviewed defendant at the police station on the day of his arrest, February 23, 2005. At that time, defendant claimed that Traylor had come into the living room while he was asleep. Traylor yelled at him and slapped him. Defendant picked up a knife to defend himself and cut Traylor. Defendant said he sustained a cut on his hand as a result of his fight with Traylor. However, defendant never told Officer Ogara that Traylor had been armed with a weapon and had cut him.

Next, Detective Jerome Code (the investigating officer) testified that he interviewed defendant on February 24, 2005. Defendant told him that Traylor had cut him with a knife. Defendant also claimed that he had left the knife he used to stab Traylor in the living room and that the police would not find a knife in the bag he was carrying when arrested.

4. The Jury Instructions

Before counsel presented their arguments, the court  [*10] instructed the jury. It submitted, inter alia, CALJIC No. 9.00, the pattern instruction defining assault. Its last paragraph reads: "A willful application of physical force upon the person of another is not unlawful when done in lawful self-defense. The People have the burden to prove that the application of physical force was not in lawful self-defense. If you have a reasonable doubt that the application of physical force was unlawful, you must find the defendant not guilty." (Italics added.)

In addition, the court gave five standard instructions defining self-defense: CALJIC Nos. 5.30 ("Self-Defense Against Assault"), 5.31 ("Assault with Fists--When Use of Deadly Weapon Not Justified"), 5.50 ("Self-Defense-Assailed Person Need Not Retreat"), 5.51 ("Self-Defense-Actual Danger Not Necessary"), and 5.52 ("Self-Defense-When Danger Ceases").

5. Closing Arguments

The prosecutor began her closing argument by noting that the jury would be required to evaluate and determine the credibility of both the victim and the defendant. In regard to defendant's claim of self-defense, she urged his explanation of the events was not credible. Then, without any objection from the defense, she stated: "But  [*11] the reason why this is not self-defense is because the defense has to prove two things: that [defendant] actually did believe that injury was imminent to him and that the force he used was necessary." 7

FOOTNOTES

7 Although defense counsel did not object below to these statements, defendant now contends that the comments constitute prejudicial prosecutorial misconduct. While we agree with the Attorney General that a timely and specific objection and request for a curative instruction would have cured the harm caused by this misstatement of law, we cannot see any satisfactory explanation for defense counsel's failure to object. (See People v. Mendoza Tello (1997) 15 Cal.4th 264, 266.) Nonetheless, we need not decide whether prosecutorial misconduct or ineffective assistance of trial counsel would be a sufficient basis to reverse the judgment since, as will be explained, the trial court's incomplete and misleading response to the jury's question was an error which was not harmless beyond a reasonable doubt.


Defense counsel's closing argument conceded that an assault had occurred. He argued that the key issue was self-defense and that the case came down to a credibility determination. During his  [*12] explanation of the prosecution's burden of proof, he stated: "[I]f you have a doubt, for example, you're not sure but think maybe this is self-defense, and it's caused you to doubt whether or not the prosecution has proven to you that it's not self-defense, you have a reasonable doubt at that point and you have to return a verdict of not guilty." At another point, he said: "It is not okay to allow the burden of proof to be shifted onto [the defendant]. He doesn't have to prove anything to you. Not a thing. . . . If anything that [the defendant] said to you or if any other evidence that was presented to you by the defense causes you to doubt the evidence of the prosecutor, then you have a reasonable doubt and you must return a verdict of not guilty."

In her rebuttal argument, the prosecutor reiterated that credibility and self-defense were the key issues the jury had to address. She made no specific reference to burden of proof.

6. The Jury's Question and The Court's Response

During deliberations, the jury sent the following question to the trial court: "When considering the self-defense issue of Count 2 [assault with a deadly weapon], whose responsibility is it to prove or disprove self-defense,  [*13] and to what level?"

The court met with counsel to discuss the jury's inquiry. The following exchange occurred:
"[Defense Counsel]: The defense would propose, beyond just reading the self-defense instructions over again, particularly because this is sometimes a confusing issue for jurors regarding whose burden it is to prove or disprove self-defense, my understanding of the law is that if they have a reasonable doubt as to whether or not self-defense applies then they must return a verdict of not guilty.

"In other words, unless the People have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense, they're mandated by law to return a verdict of not guilty.

"THE COURT: I don't think that's an accurate statement of the law.

"[Deputy District Attorney]: I don't either.

"THE COURT: I think an accurate statement of the law is that the People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable. I think that's an accurate statement of the law.

"[Defense Counsel]: I think that's also an accurate statement of the law.

"[Deputy District Attorney]: And that he believed - that he believed - isn't it the prong, that he actually  [*14] believed an injury and that he didn't use more than -

"THE COURT: No. I think the jury instruction talks about the use of reasonable force in self-defense. I think the People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable.

"If the two of you want time to look into this, you can look into it. So my response would be to reread [CALJIC Nos.] 5.30, 5.31, 5.50, 5.51, and 5.52, and that the People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable.

"[Defense Counsel]: Submitted.

"[Deputy District Attorney]: Submit.

"THE COURT: Okay. That's the response they'll get then."


Thereafter, the court sent the jury the following written response: "Please re-read Jury Instructions 5.30, 5.31, 5.50, 5.51, and 5.52. [P] The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable." Twenty-seven minutes later, the jury returned with its verdicts. It convicted defendant of assault with a deadly weapon with true findings on the enhancement allegations of personal use of a deadly weapon and infliction of great bodily injury. It acquitted  [*15] defendant of attempted murder as well as the lesser included offense of attempted voluntary manslaughter (act committed during a sudden quarrel or in heat of passion).

DISCUSSION

Defendant contends that reversal is required because the trial court failed to answer adequately the jury's question about which party carried the burden to prove or disprove self-defense. We agree.

"For self-defense, the defendant must actually and reasonably believe in the need to defend, the belief must be objectively reasonable, and the fear must be of imminent danger to life or great bodily injury." (People v. Lee (2005) 131 Cal.App.4th 1413, 1427.) Further, the defendant may use only that amount of force which is reasonably necessary to defend against the danger. (People v. Clark (1982) 130 Cal.App. 3d 371, 380.) When, as here, there is sufficient evidence to warrant instructions on self-defense, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense does not apply. (People v. Adrian (1982) 135 Cal.App.3d 335, 340-341; People v. Pineiro (1982) 129 Cal.App.3d 915, 920; People v. Banks (1976) 67 Cal.App.3d 379, 384.) In other words, if there is a reasonable doubt whether the defense applies  [*16] - i.e., a reasonable doubt whether the defendant reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of bodily injury, reasonably believed immediate use of force was necessary to defend, and used no more force than was reasonably necessary - the jury must acquit.

The parties agree that CALJIC No. 9.00-which was submitted to the jury--correctly applied the concept of self-defense to the charge of assault. Where the parties disagree is on the question of the sufficiency of the trial court's response to the jury's question. 8 Defendant's attack on the trial court's response is two fold. First, defendant urges that because the trial court failed to instruct the jury to review CALJIC No. 9.00, it did not properly direct the jury to any instruction explaining that the prosecution had the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not act in self-defense and that if the jury entertained a reasonable doubt about the application of the defense, it was required to acquit him. Defendant's claim is well-taken. None of the five instructions cited by the trial court in its response addressed those issues. The instructions simply explained the elements of and exceptions to self-defense.



DISPOSITION

The judgment is reversed.

WILLHITE, J.

We concur:

EPSTEIN, P.J.

SUZUKAWA, J.
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发表于 2009-6-21 14:57 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 鄙西居士 于 2009-6-21 14:59 编辑

    没有人去理会新加坡律师怎么看。我也要告诫CCTV4,就没什么念了吗?引用海外媒体,经常用到**早报的,这就是农夫和蛇的故事。
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发表于 2009-6-21 15:00 | 显示全部楼层
不管怎么说,最终结果是她认罪了,而且这还必要法院审核批准宣判,入档定罪。开玩笑,杀人放火能不通过法院,这就是审判!很多重罪,你承认了,当然不需要陪审团,陪审团的功用,就是决定是否给你定罪! ...
jshi6210 发表于 2009-6-21 14:00


一个自卫先判有罪, 上诉后无罪的案例.


COURT OF APPEAL OF CALIFORNIA, THIRD APPELLATE DISTRICT
56 Cal. App. 2d 366; 132 P.2d 545; 1942 Cal. App. LEXIS 214

CASE SUMMARY
[url=]PROCEDURAL POSTURE:[/url]

Defendant appealed from the judgment of the Superior Court of San Joaquin County (California), entered upon a jury verdict, convicting him of the manslaughter of a man that was shot by defendant during a bar fight. He also appealed from an order denying his motion for a new trial.

[url=]OVERVIEW:[/url]

Defendant was charged with murder. The evidence at trial showed that a fight broke out in a bar when a man punched defendant's friend, knocking him unconscious. Hostilities ceased for a time before beginning again. After the man knocked him to the floor, defendant drew his firearm as he arose. When the man took a step toward him, defendant shot the man in the stomach. The jury was instructed that defendant had a duty to flee from the scene and "retreat to the wall" before the use of deadly force in self-defense would be justified. Defendant was convicted of manslaughter and he appealed. In reversing, the court ruled that whether defendant shot the man in necessary self-defense was a question for the jury under proper instructions. However, California courts had rejected the "retreat to the wall" doctrine of self-defense and the prejudice resulting from that erroneous instruction was not overcome by other instructions on self-defense that were correct. Given the conflicting evidence, it was also error to refuse an instruction regarding the right of one who was assailed to stand his ground and to use all necessary force to repel the attack.

[url=]OUTCOME:[/url] The judgment of conviction and order denying a new trial were reversed.
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发表于 2009-6-21 15:23 | 显示全部楼层
87# 侃小山

笑一笑吧.
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发表于 2009-6-21 20:40 | 显示全部楼层
什么叫做不对等的防卫。
三个男人的拳头,一个弱女也只能用拳头还击就对等了吗?
五星利中华 发表于 2009-6-20 10:17



中国不但法盲多 而且平等意识也差。

三个男人的拳头对一个女人固然是不对等,但是一个女人手中有刀或者枪对三个没武器的男人,也是不对等。

人家骂你一句,踢你一下是恶,你把别人杀了是大恶,邓玉娇是以大恶制小恶。
很多人不理解我,认为我本人是 一个女子,为什么不同情邓玉娇,因为我认为世界上没有比杀人更大的恶。
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发表于 2009-6-21 23:12 | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2009-6-21 23:14 | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2009-6-21 23:18 | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2009-6-21 23:23 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 accountant 于 2009-6-21 23:24 编辑
不管怎么说,最终结果是她认罪了,而且这还必要法院审核批准宣判,入档定罪。开玩笑,杀人放火能不通过法院,这就是审判!很多重罪,你承认了,当然不需要陪审团,陪审团的功用,就是决定是否给你定罪! ...
jshi6210 发表于 2009-6-21 14:00


说实在, 对你提供的这一文章不好评论. 就技术而言, 也不好把它看作案例.

1)关键案情不清楚.
"What would you do? She stumbles toward her mother's door and screams for help. He pounds her so hard that the board breaks.
What would you do? She stabs him twice with a kitchen knife, as her mother tries to intervene. "

使用菜刀刺向对方前, 对方是否已经停止了对她的攻击?
对方拿着枪但一直没有开枪?

2)大陪审团.
"What prosecutors did was persuade a grand jury to indict Jacqueline Fox and her mom on murder charges. They told the teen she could avoid the risks of trial if she agreed to a 30-year prison sentence. "

要用到大陪审团, 正说明控方没有信心将被告定罪, 最后以被告认罪来换取被告的自由. 被告以选择认罪来避免未知的风险, 但不一定就是有罪.

就一句话: 不好评论没有经过法庭审理的认罪协议.

What is the purpose of the grand jury?
The primary function of the modern grand jury is to review the evidence presented by the prosecutor and determine whether there is probable cause to return an indictment.

The original purpose of the grand jury was to act as a buffer between the king (and his prosecutors) and the citizens. Critics argue that this safeguarding role has been erased, and the grand jury simply acts as a rubber stamp for the prosecutor.

Since the role of the grand jury is only to determine probable cause, there is no need for the jury to hear all the evidence, or even conflicting evidence. It is left to the good faith of the prosecutor to present conflicting evidence.

In the federal system, the courts have ruled that the grand jury has extraordinary investigative powers that have been developed over the years since the 1950s. This wide, sweeping, almost unrestricted power is the cause of much of the criticism. The power is virtually in complete control of the prosecutor, and is pretty much left to his or her good faith.

Does every jurisdiction use a grand jury?

The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires a grand jury indictment for federal criminal charges. Only about half the states now use grand juries.
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发表于 2009-6-21 23:33 | 显示全部楼层
什么叫做不对等的防卫。
三个男人的拳头,一个弱女也只能用拳头还击就对等了吗?
五星利中华 发表于 2009-6-20 10:17


在那种具体时空, 要对等, 也只有使用能用得上的方法: 刀子.
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发表于 2009-6-22 01:25 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 jshi6210 于 2009-6-22 01:33 编辑
在那种具体时空, 要对等, 也只有使用能用得上的方法: 刀子.
accountant 发表于 2009-6-21 23:33



对不起,来晚了. 看到你又有一些新的发现,辛苦了.

不知你明白不,法院的很多刑事案子是不一定要陪审团的. 陪审团只是审判程序中可有可无的一步,每次不用陪审团,可节约社区纳税人的很多钱.有好几次看到我公司的同事,说是请假要去做陪审团成员,结果到那一天,他们没有去,后来问他们怎么回事,说是可能被告认罪了.因此,如果你说我举的案例因没有最终通过陪审团来定罪,不能够叫案例,那是你的观点. 你有表达你的观点的自由,但据前所述,我仍然认为那是一个很典型的案例.

还有,你认为我举的例子有不清楚的细节,那也是你认为. 即使是真的,也是正常的,因为你我没有这种能力和必要去知道任何一个案例的每一个细节.我想,你也不用给我举例,我也不用再给你举案例,因为"有不清楚的细节"总可以是一个借口.邓案也许就是一个例子!过你如果还想听我举的其他案例,告诉我一声,我PM给你.

有许多案例STAND OUT,往往是因为它有争议,而且往往争议的焦点是在道德与法律的冲突方面,如所谓的"合理不合法". 但最终还是要听法院的,就象我一开始在65楼所引述的:只有在法院能判决是否是正当防卫.所以,根据法院的判决和已浮出水面的事实(这也许与一些人的期望想象和主观推断相左),玉娇是防卫过当,因此有罪
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发表于 2009-6-22 09:44 | 显示全部楼层
如果有好几个壮汉用拳头打你,你兜里有刀,你是会任由他们打还是掏刀自卫?难道为了不防卫过当就要让自己受到伤害吗?
bleepcnn 发表于 2009-6-20 13:37



如果那几个壮汉只是泄愤,并不想打死你,你完全可以拿出刀来,警告他们不要在侵犯自己,否则就要刺伤他们。如果他们在你的警告下,仍然不停止对你的侵犯,那你就可以掏刀自卫了。

但是一般这种情况,自卫者有武器也很难自卫,因为对方几个壮汉,他们处于强势,对方一个人处于劣势,没有机会让你拿刀的,除非你武功高强,不然就俯首听命。

所以提出这个问题的人,一般生活常识和逻辑知识都极度缺乏。

法律为什么容许“为阻止正在进行杀人、打抢、强奸、绑架及其他严重危及人身安全的暴力犯罪者,所采取的防卫行为,造成对方伤亡,亦属正当防卫,并不会构成犯罪行为。”

很多人不知道背后所包含的原理,因为正当防卫是不能滥开缺口的,否则公民的生命就无法得到保证,如果每个人因为遭受了一些侮辱就杀人,那么暴力就会泛滥。

而上述杀人、打抢、强奸、绑架等犯罪活动,对方都是属于故意而有预谋性质,他们的活动都是突发性、有准备的,他们选择的对手多数处于劣势,一般情况下,反抗必死,比如遭遇绑架,人质如果反抗,那么马上就会被绑匪杀害。

所以一般情况下受害者多以保全性命为上,停止反抗,等待有救援人员来到时,再伺机行事。

正因为对方处于一种强大的暴力优势,反抗者能够反抗成功的几率很小,所以法律可以给于受害者无限防卫权。同时也因为如此,为了防止正当防卫权滥用,所以法律对实行防卫的前提、条件需要严格的论证,以免冤枉好人,放过坏人。

这就是法律的严肃性。

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发表于 2009-6-22 09:47 | 显示全部楼层
     某个黄皮白心的香蕉佬  不知道在中国大陆   法院办案是以“三个至上”为原则 根本谈不上什么独立审判。

香蕉佬绝对不知道 政法委书记是什么玩意, 更不知道法院是在政法委的领导下工作的   而地方政法委 ...
侃小山 发表于 2009-6-22 08:20



你好象是LMZ,我们都是老熟人啦. 这次不要再骂人了.

我一直不能肯定你是不是XX,因为XX跟你说话的态度是一样的.

说什么做什么要以事实为前提,即使你有自由乱扣帽子说大话.
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发表于 2009-6-22 09:50 | 显示全部楼层
而邓玉娇在拿出刀来的时候,完全可以先通过和平的方式制止对方继续侵害,比如当时在场的有三名服务员,再有她拿出刀来的时候应该预先警告对方,如果再动手,那么她就要动刀了,而这些可解决问题的方式她均没有实施,她就 杀人了,属于故意伤害,法院的定罪是恰当的。

而且法庭鉴定她患有精神病,那么正当防卫一说就不适用于精神病人。
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发表于 2009-6-22 10:43 | 显示全部楼层
呵呵  我在帮香蕉佬 普及中国司法知识 别误会了

邓玉娇一案 官方帮邓玉娇解聘律师  又帮邓玉娇重新聘用律师 不许外省律师介入, 把邓玉娇送进精神病院  又没有做精神鉴定 ,封存关键证物 又不做检验  还跟外界说 ...
侃小山 发表于 2009-6-22 10:12



很佩服你呀,你知道的真是多 呀!实际警察做的都没有你知道的多,实际律师做的都没有你知道的多,实际大夫做的都没有你知道的多,玉娇想的做的都没有你知道的多,当然,死去的人就不用提了,你肯定比他知道的还多,还有法官,还有......你比所有人都知道的多,你已经超出了全人类,你已不再是X 啦.



行啦,你不用给我出难题啦,我也不想白费力了 ,我可以肯定:在美国的所有案例中,找不到一个案例,在所有涉案人员中,有一个人象你知道这么多的此案"内部事实".
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发表于 2009-6-22 11:04 | 显示全部楼层
邓玉娇的笔录陈述 居然没有作为法庭的相关证据   还有两个当事人在法庭也没有露脸   哈哈哈 ~~~

请香蕉佬查一下米国有没有这样的案例

...
侃小山 发表于 2009-6-22 10:58



知道了,7月1日之前,也就是6月31日,听我的回话!
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发表于 2009-6-22 12:23 | 显示全部楼层
楼上:
邓玉娇的笔录陈述 居然没有作为法庭的相关证据   还有其他两个涉案当事人在法庭也没有露脸   哈哈哈 ~~~

请香蕉佬查一下米国有没有这样的案例
  

我知道的肯定比香蕉佬多 香蕉佬是查外国网站 解读邓玉娇案
我是直接向前办案律师询问 向在一线的网友屠夫了解案情,看成都卫视的记者实地调查出来的视频。

香蕉佬 你做人不能cnn啊  拿外国的网站说中国的事情
___________________________________

看来你说话处处自相矛盾,你一方面要别人查查米国有没有这样的案例,另一方面又说别人拿外国网站说中国的事情.

看来你是选择性的,适合你的标准的,外国的就有用;不适合你的标准的外国的就没用.

那么,我问你.如果纯粹按中国的做法来做,那中国法院的判决,你又凭什么拿国外的网站来说事?

再有,在美国色情行业是合法的,如果嫖客让性工作提供服务,可以算强奸吗?

看你的注册日期,估计你是来这里混淆视听的,对吧?
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发表于 2009-6-22 14:19 | 显示全部楼层
你的理解能力有问题 。我的意思是想问米国有没有这样的偏向性的取证过程。我知道是没有的。故意问一下。

司法程序都有问题  就不要奢谈什么司法正义了。

你的家庭在海外有关系  在大陆官场也有点关系  可以理解你 ...
侃小山 发表于 2009-6-22 13:42


你的理解力才是大大的问题。看来你真的不明白我说什么。

你让别人不要拿外国的法律套中国的案情,可是你一直再用外国的法律来解说中国的案情,那你不是只许州官放火,不许百姓点灯吗?

我不知道什么是强奸,那好你告诉我什么是强奸?
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发表于 2009-6-22 16:39 | 显示全部楼层
判的好!如此可让那些意欲图谋的人有所顾忌!
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发表于 2009-6-22 20:30 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 jshi6210 于 2009-6-22 21:21 编辑
别睁眼说瞎话  我用哪个国家的法律解说中国的案件了? 我倒是看见有人老是粘贴那些洋文案例来说事

像邓贵大那三个人的行为就叫强奸未遂   如果他们得逞了叫强奸  懂了吧? ...
侃小山 发表于 2009-6-22 17:01



对不起,我只好揭露你了。是你让我在米国找一找案例,来"解说中国的案件". (见103楼到future)

我们赖也赖不掉呀!
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