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发表于 2008-5-25 10:15
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Tibet Response Network
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:10 pm
I'm not one to see "reds under the bed" but Mr. Jones has a great deal of time on his hands to write long, complex pieces on Tibet and China. I don't even have time to read them all, let alone write pieces of that length and complexity. Is school out at the moment?
Anyway, taking at face value your "bio" of Aussie English teacher in China five years - you may know a great deal about China and Chinese history but you're less well informed on the Tibetan government in exile and His Holiness.
HH is a devout Buddhist who (unlike some Tibetan monks it is true) lives according to his vows. When not travelling he lives a simple life and works hard to accomplish his two main goals - the preservation and propagation of the Buddhist Dharma and the preservation of Tibetan culture.
Tibetans in India are taught English as a second language to Tibetan - they need this lingua fanca to be able to communicate and get by in their country of adoption. In China they are taught Chinese because it is the language of their illegal occupiers and most of the teachers don't speak Tibetan.
It is true that a number of Tibetans come to India as pilgrims. Others come for education, hoping to return to Tibet. It is equally true that many come as political refugees and are recognised as such by both the UN and the Indian government.
On the question of the exile government having financial and political motives..... show me any government that does not.
Bottom line. China invaded Tibet under force of arms. China denies Tibetans basic freedoms and rights and imprisons, tortures and executes Tibetans without benefit of open trial. When China holds an open , free referendum of all Tibetans on whether they want "two systems, one country" government, Tibetan government or Chinese government I'll start listening attentively to the Chinese apologists. Until then I'll continue to regard them as just that; apologists for an anachronistic, hypocritical dictatorship.
David Meanwell
Tibet Urgent Response Network - working with Tibetans for Tibet
【原文鏈接】http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?p=496511#496511
【中文翻譯】
Tibet Response Network貼於: 2007年1月13日, 星期六, 晚上7:10
我並非「草木皆兵」之人, 但Jones先生手上那麼多時間去寫那麼又長又繁有關西藏與中國的文章。我甚至沒空一一看完, 甭說寫那麼又長又繁的東西了。學校現在放假了嗎?
好吧, 算你如自稱一個老澳英文教師在中國教了五年的履歷是真的, 你也許對中國及中國歷史很瞭解, 可你對西藏流亡政府和達賴上師他卻沒那麼瞭解。
上師他是個很虔誠的佛教徒, (不像一些西藏喇嘛, 是真的) 他按照他的發願來生活的。在不旅行時, 他生活簡單, 很努力去實現他兩個主要目標 – 保存及宏揚藏傳佛教和保存西藏文化。
印度的西藏人是以英語當為藏語以外的第二語言來教授的 – 他們需要這新共同語言來在他們東道國裡溝通及應付日常生活。在中國他們被授以中文, 那是因為中文是他們非法佔領者的語言, 而大部份教師不懂藏文。
有些西藏人是作為朝聖者來印度。其他來受教育, 希望回到西藏去。但 同樣屬實的是許多是政治難民而且是同時被聯合國與印度政府承認的。
至於流亡政府有經濟及政治動機….. 請你說說那個政府不這樣。
底線是: 中國武力入侵西藏。中國否決西藏人基本自由和權利, 並在沒有予以公開聆訊就囚禁, 折磨, 及處決西藏人。要是中國舉行公開自由的公投, 讓所有西藏人決定他們是要「一國兩制」政府, 西藏政府或中國政府, 我才會仔細聽那些中國辯護者說什麼。在此之前, 我置之不理, 那些為過時, 虛偽獨裁者辯論的人。
David Meanwell
Tibet Urgent Response Network - working with Tibetans for Tibet
西藏緊急回應網絡 – 與藏人為西藏工作
ChineseHawkeye
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:30 pm
Tibet Response Network
I feel astonished you did not realized who those exiles and lama were? Why do you insist slavery return to Tibet? I have no clue where you got the information that "China invaded Tibet under force of arms. China denies Tibetans basic freedoms and rights and imprisons, tortures and executes Tibetans without benefit of open trial".
Do not repeat those silly propaganda from liars. Please go to Tibet province in China yourself and see with your own eyes. I promise CCP would not follow you as long as you do not shout "free tibet" on street there, lol.
ChineseHawkeye貼於: 2007年1月13日, 星期六, 晚上9:30
西藏緊急回應網絡
我感到震驚, 你對那些西藏流亡份子跟喇嘛過往是什麼人竟全不知底蘊? 你為什麼堅持奴隸制度重回西藏? 我摸不著頭腦你從那裡來的資訊說「中國武力入侵西藏。中國否決西藏人基本自由和權利, 並在沒有予以公開聆訊就囚禁, 折磨, 及處決西藏人。」
不要重覆那些騙子的白痴文宣啦。請你親自去一下中國裡的西藏省, 用自己眼睛去看看。我答應你, 你要不在那裡隨街叫嚷「西藏獨立」, 共產黨是不會跟蹤你的。哈哈哈
M.A. Jones
Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:39 pm
Dear David Meanwell,
You say that the Dalai Lama lives a 「simple」 life when not travelling. Perhaps, but he still lives a very privileged life when in Dharmasala by comparison with his fellows in exile. And he certainly does know how to live it up while on the road. Every time the Dalai Lama visitis his movie star friends in Los Angeles for example, he stays in the Presidential Suite at the Huntington Ritz-Carlton Hotel, which normally rents for $3000 a day!
I like to base my assessments on empirically verifiable facts David, and in order to come to a fair and balanced assessment, it is always necessary to examine the big picture, which requires access and attention to quantitative as well as qualitative evidence.
If you were to take a closer look at the real situation for incarnate lamas (or tulkas), both inside and outside of the Tibetan Autonomous Region, then you would appreciate the fact that they do not live 「simple」 lives compared to most, but rather, lives of privilege and comparative material wealth. This applies to tulkas living in the TAR as well as to those like the Dalai Lama in Dharmasala.
Allow me to be lazy (I do in fact have limited time, as it is the last week of the term before my students begin preparations for their final assessments) by quoting at length for you the findings of a study by Pamela Logan titled 「Tulkas in Tibet」, published in the Winter 2004 edition of Harvard Asia Quarterly:
「The transformation of Old Tibet into an integral part of China has meant big changes for tulkus. Yet paradoxically, it has led to greater, not less, power for some. The Karma Kagyu sect, for example, has played second fiddle to the Geluk Sect since the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama. In Old Tibet, the Karma Kagyu held perhaps five hundred monasteries, which maintained loose ties to one another. Economically, these monasteries derived their sustenance from offerings given by local people. These ordinary supporters were subsistence farmers and herdsmen, who tithed grain, meat, butter, animals, and land. A portion of their offerings would have been distributed to the tulkus according to their rank. The highest ranked tulku in the sect is the Karmapa, and he would have had some degree of influence over much of these assets, in addition to his own labrang, or estate. It was a comfortable existence, but it had limitations, too.
....Contrast this to the modern situation. While within Tibet itself, the Karma Kagyu are still a distant second place, the school has been remarkably successful in propagating overseas. The Karmapa's followers are said to number five million globally, and some have claimed his assets to be worth over $1.2 billion. This staggering sum is disputed by many, and I have been unable to discover how it was calculated. Nevertheless, the aggregate wealth of the centres owned by various charities and used for Karma Kagyu worship around the world is astonishing. They operate meditation centres in 34 countries on six continents, including dozens in America, Europe, and Asia. Most of these are simply associations, but some are actual properties, a number of them located on prime real estate in the cities of London, Hamburg, Dublin, Barcelona, Essex, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and Hong Kong. They also operate dozens of centres in India.」
So Tibetan incanate lamas, living in the TAR, are doing very well under Chinese rule, it would seem!
「Even lesser tulkus enjoy deep devotion from ordinary Tibetans. Pewar Rinpoche is a minor Sakya sect tulku who keeps a modest labrang in Derge, a small town in eastern Tibet. He spends a good deal of time travelling, but when word reaches Derge that he is coming home, people line the streets, as many as 24 hours in advance. When he is in residence, a constant stream of callers come seeking blessings or advice. They bow low as they enter the room, tears in their eyes, and approach Pewar Rinpoche in the manner of supplicants approaching a king. Each caller, no matter how poor, contributes a tattered bill to the pile on the table beside Pewar Rinpoche's great throne-like chair. Although his house – like most in the town – still lacks a flush toilet, he is not short of cash, food, or gifts.」
Yep, and the theocratic elite living outside of the TAR, in Dharmasala also receive plenty of such gifts.
Over the last 25 years, a portion of China's new wealth has 「trickled up the narrow, winding dirt roads to the Tibetan plateau」 and the standard of living for Tibetans has consequently been improving, as I have already argued. 「As the climate of fear lifted,」 says Logan, 「families again began tithing alms and sons. Despite serious political instability in Lhasa, tulkus in most parts of Tibet found that the resources at their disposal were slowly increasing. Punctuating this slow rise were occasional uprisings against Chinese rule at some rebellious monasteries. The resulting crackdowns led to imprisonment for the ringleaders, who sometimes included tulkus, and restraints on movement. But the majority of tulkus kept their heads low, and managed to avoid these problems. By the mid-1990s, many had attained a fairly comfortable Tibetan lifestyle and restored the most important temples in their monasteries. Their wealth continued to increase, and so, like many others belonging to the rising middle class, they discovered a new use for disposable income: travel.」
Yes, today's Tibetan incarnate lamas are doing very well. Pamela Logan again:
「In 2000 I visited a Buddhist monastery located on the remote grasslands of eastern Tibet. There was not a tree within three hours' drive, and the land supported only a sparse scattering of herdsmen. Nevertheless, the monastery was thronging with people. Hundreds of workers were in the final stages of constructing a grand new temple. The monks were busily preparing for a great dedication ceremony that would soon take place. Workers were also constructing a hospital, a primary school for local children, and a hotel to house the many hundreds of expected guests. To finance these projects, seven million yuan (almost US$900,000) had been raised by a local tulku from his followers. The donors were not in Tibet, nor were they from overseas. They were in the eastern Chinese regions of Shanghai, Guangzhou, Zhejiang, and Fujian. Many tulkus have discovered that Chinese cities are not only good places to spend the winter, shop, and eat well; they are also good places to collect new students and raise funds. I know a number of tulkus who have established second homes in Chengdu, the largest metropolis in the vicinity of the Tibetan plateau. From there they travel to other Chinese cities. More than a few of them have obtained Chinese passports and travel abroad to places such as Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan. Although many of them do not speak Mandarin well, they seem to fascinate their Chinese followers.」
So much for all of the hyperbolic claims of the Tibetan Government in Exile and its supporters. The Tibetan Government in Exile know damn well how good their counterparts in the TAR are doing under Chinese rule too, which is why even the Dalai Lama himself now concedes that Tibet is better off under Chinese rule. 「To remain with the People's Republic of China is in our interest,」 he said, adding that China was an economically powerful Asian nation. (Reported by the PTI news agency in December 2006, and picked up and reported by many mainstream newspapers throughout the world).
Tibetans in Exile support groups claim that Tibetans in the TAR are prevented from free religious practice. This is simply not the case either, as many observers to Tibet today will testify to. Pamela Logan again:
「A tulku's most basic responsibility is to his sangha, his religious community. In modern Tibet, Buddhist practice is monitored by the Religious Affairs Bureau, a branch of the Chinese government; therefore, tulkus must tread a careful path through a maze of conflicting demands. If they serve as abbots, they are supposed to participate in periodic 'patriotic re-education' campaigns, and to uphold various rules concerning things like the number of monks at their monastery. Because of their influence, they may be asked to speak out in favour of government campaigns. However, most tulkus I know do not seem much impeded by government-imposed duties. They spend much more time on their traditional responsibilities. Every monastery has a calendar of religious activities in which the local tulkus are expected to take part, and a senior tulku will probably lead. Monks gather in their monastery's main assembly hall, where they sit for hours chanting in unison from printed scriptures, usually to the accompaniment of ritual instruments such as drums, horns, and bells. At times, the chanting is punctuated by other rites such as the giving of an offering, the destruction of an effigy, or the distribution of sanctified gifts such as water, protection yarn, or medicine. A great deal of detailed knowledge is required to understand these rituals and to keep to the complicated script.」
Barry Sautman's research on the present situation of religious practice in Tibet let him to the exact same conclusions.
As for the Dalai Lama himself, he seems to spend more time moving around the planet with the skilled opportunism of a political chameleon, preaching mysticism to Western New Agers rather than participating in traditional Tibetan religious rituals. Let us not forget that he lent his support to the conservative religious forces of the West by signing the "Seamless Garment" anti-abortion statement, he supports nuclear testing, and he even lent his support to Pinochet. Do you remember that David? Think back to April 1999, when His Holiness, along with Margaret Thatcher and the first George Bush, called upon the British government to release Augusto Pinochet, the former fascist dictator of Chile and a longtime CIA client who had been apprehended while visiting England. The Dalai Lama urged that Pinochet not be forced to go to Spain where he was wanted to stand trial for crimes against humanity, though he was careful to add to his call that we, the world, should "not forget about what happened." Well, why should it surprise anybody that His Holiness the Dalai Lama should come out and ask to world not to force the ageing Pinochet to stand trial - since he and his government in exile are also funded by the CIA? Yes David, His Holiness certainly does live by his vows, which I suspect probably read something like this: thou shall not be disloyal to one's own benefactors, regardless of what they ask me to do or to say!
And the Tibetan Government in Exile, as Pamela Logan and countless others have observed, 「is virtually run by tulkus, just as it was in Old Tibet. The Dalai Lama is at the top. Samdhong Rinpoche heads the Kashag (a body comparable to the Cabinet), and once chaired the Assembly. The Dalai Lama's special envoy to Washington is Lodi Gyari Rinpoche, another tulku. And the list goes on.」
And the tulkus of Dharamasala are quite prepared to purge their political rivals too. As the British journalist Christopher Hitchens reported back in 1998, 「supporters of the Dorge Shugden deity - a 『Dharma protector' and an ancient object of worship and propitiation in Tibet - have been threatened with violence and ostracism and even death following the Dalai Lama's abrupt prohibition of this once-venerated godhead. A Swiss television documentary graphically intercuts footage of His Holiness, denying all knowledge of menace and intimidation, with scenes of his followers' enthusiastically promulgating 『Wanted' posters and other paraphernalia of excommunication and persecution.」
You say David, that while many of the theocratic elite in Dhamarsala do not live according to their vows, the Dalai Lama does. This may or may not partially be the case, but so what? The world doesn't revolve around His Holiness, does t? The fate of the world's entire Tibetan population does not hang on his shoulders, despite what some might like to think. In fact, he is becoming increasingly insignificant. Tibetans in the TAR are moving on, and many of the more educated, as Pamela Logan and so many others have noted, are becoming increasingly cynical about lamaism, as their understanding of the world becomes increasingly more complex. Many of them enjoy frequenting kareoke bars more than they enjoy attending religious festivals and fundraising events. Even the Tibetan youth in India are becoming increasingly Westernised and detached from lamaism, as the recent controversy over the staging of the Miss Tibet pageant, held in India, goes to show. The Aisa Times reported how the Tibetan government-in-exile is opposed to the competition, calling it "un-Tibetan and untraditional". The government even set up billboards at high-visibility locations throughout Dharamsala expressing opposition to the beauty contest and urging all Tibetans to boycott the pageant.
Let me repeat here that I have never denied the fact that human rights abuses occur in Tibet, or that some of the refugees who flee into India are not genuine refugees deserving of refugee status. My argument is that these days, the overwhelming majority of those who make the journey into India from Tibet are not refugees, but are religious pilgrims, and that they should not therefore be given refugee status, which is partly why so many politicians and academics in both India and Nepal are now arguing for consequent changes in policy.
David, you point out that "On the question of the exile government having financial and political motives..... show me any government that does not."
(to be continued) |
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