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楼主: softfun

徐明旭------------達賴喇嘛的騙局

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发表于 2008-5-17 21:08 | 显示全部楼层
很客观...
发表于 2008-5-22 07:40 | 显示全部楼层
DL是汉奸一点都不错
发表于 2008-5-24 01:00 | 显示全部楼层
立此存照:面對民主的中國,西方人會感到更可怕。
发表于 2008-5-24 18:53 | 显示全部楼层
引经据典!分析透彻!一针见血!!!好文章!!!!希望置顶!!!

是否可以见到全文!!!
发表于 2008-5-25 07:06 | 显示全部楼层
DL公然威胁我们:@    他说若不妥协,就要暴动。
发表于 2008-5-26 08:27 | 显示全部楼层
我的观点,政治是政治,宗教是宗教, 任何宗教人物和信仰都不能超越法制。 所以寄希望于西藏的宗教领导人是可笑的,比如那个HYB ,目前最重要的是让包括西藏在内的全中国真正实现法制社会,让所有人知道,分裂国家是要坐牢的,打砸抢烧是要枪毙的。
引用一句基督教的话:律法是不可违背的,天上的圣灵下来也没有用!
发表于 2008-5-26 11:11 | 显示全部楼层
:loveliness: 一个棋子乱跳,到处找棋手,但是棋子就只能做棋子,永远成不了棋手,人家棋手玩忒了没有价值了,就会弃子,少一颗棋子没什么可惜的
发表于 2008-5-27 02:42 | 显示全部楼层
我的观点,政治是政治,宗教是宗教, 任何宗教人物和信仰都不能超越法制。 所以寄希望于西藏的宗教领导人是可笑的,比如那个HYB ,目前最重要的是让包括西藏在内的全中国真正实现法制社会,让所有人知道,分裂国家是要坐牢的,打砸抢烧是要枪毙的。
引用一句基督教的话:律法是不可违背的,天上的圣灵下来也没有用!
发表于 2008-5-27 03:02 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 anticnncnn 于 2008-5-27 02:42 发表
我的观点,政治是政治,宗教是宗教, 任何宗教人物和信仰都不能超越法制。 所以寄希望于西藏的宗教领导人是可笑的,比如那个HYB ,目前最重要的是让包括西藏在内的全中国真正实现法制社会,让所有人知道,分裂国家是要坐牢的,打砸抢 ...


大哥! 俺随便说两句您可是引用了好几遍哪!  Tu sia cristiano??:loveliness:
发表于 2008-5-27 05:53 | 显示全部楼层
正在看徐明旭先生的大作<陰謀與虔誠-----西藏騷亂的來龍去脈>,太气愤了.
建议胡哥在时机适当时,铁腕治拉萨,尤其是三大寺的喇嘛! 减少喇嘛人数,减少对西藏的经济支持,不然有些人还以为政府养他们是应该的呢.
发表于 2008-5-28 00:17 | 显示全部楼层
你提到“国际社会”,不知道你所提到的国际社会代表谁?那些对中国进行无端指责,睁着眼睛说瞎话,戴着有色眼镜,鸡蛋里挑骨头的人,他们占世界人口的百分之多少?他们能代表国际社会吗?他们有什么资格代表国际社会?
发表于 2008-5-28 00:56 | 显示全部楼层
你提到“国际社会”,不知道你所提到的国际社会代表谁?那些对中国进行无端指责,睁着眼睛说瞎话,戴着有色眼镜,鸡蛋里挑骨头的人,他们占世界人口的百分之多少?他们能代表国际社会吗?他们有什么资格代表国际社会?
发表于 2008-5-28 03:47 | 显示全部楼层
softfun, 如如吉祥, 

我試試來譯, 但對一些西藏及大陸的名詞用語, 可能需要你們幫忙作解釋, 以便以譯者註釋來說明。
如如吉祥那篇好翻一些, 欄主那篇, 恐怕要多些時間才成。
翻好了, 我貼上來, 大家一起修訂。 好嗎?
发表于 2008-5-28 07:39 | 显示全部楼层

翻好一篇, 如如吉祥, 請核對

http://bbs.m4.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=38421&extra=&page=1

ruru jixiang
Postedon 2008-5-10 09:01
Tibet

Tibet has always been a fallacy trap for Westerners in (understanding) China. When they talk about Tibet, most Westerners backdate from 50 years ago when PLA liberated Tibet. Consequently, their younger generation have been brought up and fed with the perception that China invaded Tibet50 years ago.

I had a short discussion with a Dutch supporter for Free Tibet movement, just a very ordinary Dutch ladyin her 50's. She had been in a lot of places, I can see from our exchange that she is a hard-core supporter for Free Tibet movement. However, she is not the same as those Tibetan Independence advocates we generally categorize, but just asenior humanist who strongly sympathizes Tibet with compassion.

When I asked her why she supported Tibet Independence, she tossed back, "Have you been to Tibet? Do you understand the history of Tibet?"
"Yes, I've been thereand I understand Tibetan history. I even have a lot of Tibetan friends both in Lhasa and in the Netherlands."
"Then you should realize their situation" she said.
"Yes, that's why I don't understand why you would support Tibetan Independence."
She paused and told me,"50 years ago, China invaded Tibet….."

I interrupted her, "Is the history you understand landmark at 50 years ago only? Do you know what happened in Tibet 100 years ago? Tibet is not a sovereignty, it has been part of China since 800 years ago. Are you aware of this portion of history?"

She didn't reply, but paused a while in silence.
Then I asked her,"How does the Free Tibet you support looks like? What kind of "Freedom" you are looking for?"

She gave a thought and said, "Dalai Lama just wants a dialogue."
I told her, "It seems they want more than just dialogues. Theyare preparing to turn Tibet into a sovereignty state. The Free Tibet movement has Independence targeted. And you know what, even Dalai Lama himself did not want Tibet Independence. He was explicit that he is just pursuing Tibet Autonomy, not Independence as you support."

This seemed to be something new for her, she fell into silence again.
I continued, "Do you understand why Chinese Government is not willing to talk to Dalai?

She smiled and said,"Why don't you ask your Government?"
I smiled too and said,"Why don't you ask yourself? You really think that there isn't any reason for the Chinese Government rejecting to talk to a local spiritual leader who once had been a member of its staff? What gain do they have? The Tibetan also told you to ask the Chinese Government, right? Because they know you won't possibly figure it out, furthermore, you won't be able to actually ask the Chinese Government. In fact, there had been several contacts between the Chinese Government and Dalai Lama, officially or unofficially. The meeting did not bear any results. Do you want to know why? By common sense, why would a government need to talk to an official in-exile? What is there to talk about between them? Let's step back and look at it this way, if you want to negotiate with your government for something, would you have to smash the windows of the Dutch Parliament Building?"

"Lhasa's riot was not planned by Dalai Lama,he is a pacifist." She recognised my query with respect to 3.14 event.
"I can take his word for granted" I continued, "But being a pacifist, and that he wishes to resolve Tibet issue peacefully, then how come every time there is somebody intervening his dialogue with the Chinese Government by violent acts? Are you saying that it was the Chinese Government responsible for such riots?"

She didn't reply again,perhaps she has never ever thought about these questions. For her, Tibetissue is not as complicated as I told her, it's just a matter of 1+1=2: China invaded Tibet, Tibet wants its Freedom. She never questioned if the whole thing makes sense, and never thought of any other problems within this (simplicity).

In the past 50 years, nobody made such queries, or had there been anybody who doubted the legitimacy of Tibetan Independence. Just being kind by nature, and support justice for human rights and freedom, she got lost in the lies and scams woven by the Tibetan in-exile. She didn't even consider the validity of the whole matter. Perhaps she had doubted it, then excused herself by thinking "Why there is no Chinese argue with her? Why everybody thinks the same way as her?"

However, all these changed this year. Chinese all a sudden are silent no more. They are not the modest group living in Chinese restaurants, no longer the Asians crowd in front of LV storefront along Avenue des Champs Elysees. They come from all corners of the World, using their knowledge and skills to let their long suppressed voice be heard. They even shook the Western "Freedom of the Press" media like CNN and BBC, and one of them even stood in front of her challenging her reasons to support something she has supported for 50 years.

Can you imagine an impact like this or appreciate the psychological drop? It's like MS's discovery of GOOGLE's threat, the Westerners tremble. Perhaps they foresee it will happen, but never so soon. The blasting way of development in China has all Western countries feel uneasy. They worry their jobs taken away, similar to what Japan did decades ago. They worry the return of Communism, similar to what USSR did decades ago. Perhaps their worries are not totally nonsense or without grounds, but they are at a loss when they have to face the reality.

Nevertheless, China is not Japan. There isn't a resource bottle-neck for China, who has sufficient human resources to achieve their target. When Japan seized jobs from the Western World, that was just a switch in the bowls. But when it comes to China,the loss may not just be the bowls, but the rice cookers too. We, of course, should not deny such possibility, because the World is indifferent to everyone. However, we should give the West a heads up notice from our surrounding, and avoid any significant emotional impact when this happens.

China is not USSR either,despite the administration still bears Communism in its name.  However, the understanding of Communism by practice let Chinese Communism Party evolved as an experience political party with definite goals. CCP is no longer a activist seeking for Communism just for the sake of it.
From Deng onward, CCP has evolved from an ideology-guided ruling party guided by Class Struggle to become a pragmatic ruling party guided by economic development. Stemmed for its understanding of China, CCP realizes the ancient proverb of "Survival is paramount for the people". It is only when China becomes stronger, its people get richer that Chinacan enjoy a better international recognition. Before that, we withstand the bitterness. CCP is smart, nor the Chinese Government run by a group of idiots. This is why we saw the efforts made by the Chinese Government all these years: it restrains itself when the Embassy was bombed, when the plane was crashed, and even when the Tibetan Independent activists are howling and whining.


Just what kind of a government can suppress 1.4 billion people's anger? Just what kind of a government can turn suchanger into motivation for growth?
Facing challenges, CCP makes the right choice for Chinese people.


Silence is Gold, the strongest strike-back.


Let's come back to the root of the Tibetan issue and examine who are supporting Tibetan Independence, antagonising1.4 billion Chinese?

Dalai Lama? We should only say, not really so.
At least we cannot put all the blame of agitating Tibetan Independence on Dalai Lama alone.
He is a lama, a Buddhist monk being worshipped as "Living Buddha". Even if he may wish for Tibet Independence,he can only do so by peaceful means. This is what he must abide to for being a recipient of Nobel Peace Prizeand a recognised Buddhist monk. Buddhism preaches for purification. Nobel Peace Prize will not be awarded to a war thirsty lunatic. His status and role predicate him in such a embarrassed position. He wants freedom, returns to Tibet, claims back his past glory. But time flies, theocracy is history eternally. Dalai has only two choices : either be a Buddhist monk, or a dauntless revolutionist.

Perhaps we should not deny, Dalai Lama is not willing to remain just a monk. After all, being worshipped like a god by so many is quite pleasing a living.
However, he is quite clever still, and he knows the modern World is not what it used to be. The way to rule Old Tibet shall never be restaged ever.


So a monk he chose to be. He told all the Chinese "I donot support Tibet Independence, I just wish for Autonomy for my people.",which truly be what a Buddhist monk should come up with. It can be said that, when he gave up being a ruler of Tibetand chose simply to be a religious leader, he faithfully follows the non-violence teaching of Buddhism. In this respect, I consider him qualified as a monk.

However the problem is not whether he gave up Tibetan Independence, Dalai's "Group" is not just Dalai. Dalai Lama and his Group,though coming out from the same branch, they are different in substance. That is why the Chinese Government uses the word "Dalai Group" and "Spiritual Leader" in their report of the Tibetan matters. The differentiation is clear to the Chinese Government, who also knows that resolution of Tibet issue does not lie upon Dalai himself, but the real separatists around him.

If we recall Dalai's exile process, we can deduce certain characteristic of the Dalai Group. We can even have grounds to believe that infact these people around him were the ones who orchestrate Dalai's revolt, and his subsequent exile. Perhaps Dalai is a good monk, a pacifist, but those people around him definitely do not have his level of Buddhism aspiration. Dalai Lamais powerless in controlling these people, but instead is controlled by them asa puppet in political negotiations.

To the Chinese Government, negotiation with Dalai Lama is not unachievable. Premier Wen Jianbo expressed it quite well "Our window of dialogue with Dalai is always wide-opened." But the problem is, even if we succeed in negotiating with Dalai, can he really have the ability to enforce it on the people around him? Should the Chinese Government allow Dalai returning to China, would those people around him let him come back by himself? Even if he returns smoothly, who is going to assure his safety? Will the bodyguards assigned by the Chinese Government not be smeared by overseas as watch dogs? Should Dalai's life be in jeopardy, wouldn't it be manipulated by overseas Anti-China groups in accusing the Chinese Government for assassinating a religious leader? Who can guaranteethe desperate Dalai's Group will not sacrifice Dalai at all cost for its own sakes? To a certain extent, by not allowing Dalai returning to China, the Chinese Government protects his well-being as well as the religious belief of a lot of ordinary Tibetans. Perhaps, in the end, allowing Dalai a burial in his homeland would be the only chance for him to return to China.


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[ 本帖最后由 ltbriar 于 2008-5-28 07:58 编辑 ]
发表于 2008-5-28 13:32 | 显示全部楼层
對於徐先生引用的合眾國際社與路透社 1993年8月11, 及10月3日兩篇外文報導,
不知大家有沒有可能找到英文原本??? 那比較我再翻回去, 效果較好.
我在網上找不到. 不知圖書館會不會有?
发表于 2008-5-29 09:37 | 显示全部楼层
我们对dl喇嘛和西方政界,绝不能抱有任何幻想。
发表于 2008-5-29 14:25 | 显示全部楼层
徐先生,敬佩!
发表于 2008-5-30 00:35 | 显示全部楼层
大家有沒有可能找到英文原本?
发表于 2008-5-30 06:06 | 显示全部楼层

流亡政府該叫流氓政府才對, 真的連自己根也刨了

找到, 現在還在等10月3日那份, 應該沒問題
但徐先生說是引述, 卻不是照稿子搬的,
UPI 那份有說是 copyright, 不知大家清不清楚這些法律問題??

是不是要是引明出處, 就可以採用??????

[ 本帖最后由 ltbriar 于 2008-5-30 06:59 编辑 ]
发表于 2008-5-30 06:49 | 显示全部楼层

流亡政府該叫流氓政府才對, 真的連自己根也刨了

藏獨流亡政府真的很無恥. 找到1993年的新聞月稿, 居然發現他們連自己的宗教歷史都竄改!! 把班禪一世說成是達賴一世的弟子其實達賴一世是師弟, 是這師兄負責代師傳法, 班禪一世對達賴一世的成長很重要!他們為什麼要扭曲歷史, 我想就是當年向西方弄出一個班禪轉世, 是他達賴才有權使之合法性在愚弄國際, 搞得他自己很了不起, 沒了他, 西藏就再出不了班禪,說成當年北京有求於他的樣子. 而事實上證明, 15年過去了, 有什麼不行?不行的是, 我們今天知道他們當年說了些什麼鬼話!!!朋友們, 我把資料整理好了, 大家有西方朋友, 如那荷蘭老太太的, 就把這個告訴他們, 讓他們看看騙子的樣子吧!!!

(Notes: Attached are archive records of both press releases which we translated into Chinese as well. Given its nature being a press release, information should have been provided by the Government-in-exile. We found there was a serious distortion of historical FACT by their claim that the 1st Panchen Lama was disciple of the 1st Dalai Lama, which simply is not true.

The first two Dalai Lamas, as well as first three Panchen Lamas were all recognised after their death, though the granting of the title "Dalai" (1578) by Chinese Ming Dynasty was earlier than that of Panchen (1645) as granted by the Qing Dynasty.

Not only both titles were granted by Chinese Emperors
, it was the 3rd Dalai Lama who actively sought for such title recognition from the Ming Emperor, and his action literally admitted thathe was Ming's subject and ruled by the Ming Dynasty, and thus, was part of China.

The first Panchen (1385-1438) was 6 years older than the 1st Dalai (1391-1474) and was the 2nd disciple (from 1407) of Tsongkhapa (1357-1419), a legacy of Tibetan Lamaism. The 1st Dalai Lama,however, became Tsongkhapa's disciple in 1416, 9 years later than the 1st Panchen Lama.

How could a more senior disciple of the same teacher become the disciple of his junior fellow student?

The Government-in-exile even distorts their religious history to make a false representation and illusion that Dalai Lama is Panchen Lama's boss, and the reincarnation of Panchen Lama needs Dalai's recognition to become legitimate.Well,it's not the case. They cross recognise each other, similar to diplomatic relations.)


Reference:

http://www.lsfyw.net/Article/HTML/20070204151337_9109.html  
All the Dalais
http://www.lsfyw.net/Article/HTML/20070204151220_9108.htmlAll the Panchens
http://space.tv.cctv.com/act/article.jsp?articleId=ARTI1206176601818399 Dalai, Panchen & reincarnation
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%97%E5%96%80%E5%B7%B4Tsongkhapa (Chinese)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_Tsongkhapa
Tsongkhapa (English)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khedrup_Gelek_Pelzang  Khedrup Je (1st Panchen) (English)
"…He played an important rolein the education of the First Dalai Lama, who was the youngest of Tsongkhapa'sfive chief disciples."


Reuters.jpg
(
譯註: 附錄兩份由檔案翻查的有關新聞稿及中譯本。由於這是新聞稿, 資料應是由流亡政府所提供給記者的。我們發現其中有一處嚴重失實, 就是指稱「班禪一世是達賴一世的徒弟, 這並非是事實

達賴一及二世
, 乃至班禪一至三世都是死後才追認的, 雖然達賴這稱號(1578)是比班禪這稱號(1645)早了很多。

這兩稱號不僅都是由中國皇帝策封
, 而且是達賴三世自己積極奔走請求明皇朝策封的。這行動本身就承認了他是明朝子民, 由明朝管轄, 於是是中國的一部份

班禪一世
(1385-1438)比達賴一世(1391-1474)年長6, 是喇嘛教傳奇大宗師宗喀巴(1357-1419)的第二大弟子(1407年入門下)。達賴一世卻是在1416年才成為宗喀巴弟子, 比班禪一世晚了9

有什麼可能同一師傅先入門的弟子會變成晚入門那人的門徒
?
流亡政府不惜歪曲自己的宗教歷史來製造假象
, 哄騙外國不知情者好像達賴比班禪高, 而班禪的轉世靈童必須達賴首肯才有合法性的樣子。事實上, 不是的, 他們互相交叉承認, 就像現代的外交關係一樣)

參考:

http://www.lsfyw.net/Article/HTML/20070204151337_9109.html
歷代達賴知多少
http://www.lsfyw.net/Article/HTML/20070204151220_9108.html歷代班禪知多數
http://space.tv.cctv.com/act/article.jsp?articleId=ARTI1206176601818399   達賴,班禪由來及轉世http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AE%97%E5%96%80%E5%B7%B4  宗喀巴 (中文)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_Tsongkhapa  
宗喀巴 (英文)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khedrup_Gelek_Pelzang 克珠杰 (班禪一世) (英文)
"…他在教育宗喀巴五大弟子中最年輕的達賴一世, 扮演很重要角色。"

[ 本帖最后由 ltbriar 于 2008-5-30 06:55 编辑 ]
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