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发表于 2008-6-8 14:08
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呵, 這回又要大家一起動腦筋, 看怎堵這傢伙的咀,
對於他的第二點, 我已在那裡回貼了, 怎見得是清廷在挽回面子, 而不是那些高級喇嘛?
我也把他們說謊(路透社那宗)貼了, 連獅子旗也是清廷發的, 那是乾隆的大清皇朝
不是道光咸豐哎, 這些傢伙什麼都不知道就亂扯. 我找到一些是西藏, 蒙古跟清廷之間較勁的網頁.
待會再查證後轉載來大家研判一下, 可不可用?
• Palang April 21, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Yes this is true. My family is Bonpo and we don’t follow Dalai Lama. When we go to Lhasa, people hate us because we are Bonpo. They say we are animals and uncivilized and they tell us to go back to Kham.
【中文翻譯】
Palang貼於: 2008年4月21日, 晚上6:19
对, 这是事实。我家是苯教的, 我们不追随dl喇嘛。我们去拉萨时, 人们因我们是苯教而仇视我们。他们说我们是畜牲, 不文明而他们叫我们回去康区。
• Anonymous
April 22, 2008 at 9:25 pm
“…Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only…”
the one that the CCP kidnapped, not the puppet Panchen Zuma that the CCP installed
【中文翻譯】
Anonymous貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上9:25
“…中南藏区(以江孜市为中心)只信奉班禅喇嘛…”
是被中共绑架那个, 不是中共设立的傀儡假班禅…”
• terminator April 22, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Regardless which Panchen, we know that the Tibetans in Kham do not warship Dalai Lama. And even worse, the Tibetans in TAR hate them. So I wonder how Dalai Lama can claim that all Tibetans want to follow him and seek independence (or in another word, autonomous)?
【中文翻譯】
terminator 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上9:53
不管那位班禅, 我们知道康区藏人不信dl喇嘛。更甚是, 西藏自治区的藏人讨厌他们。所以我奇怪dl喇嘛如何能说所有藏人都愿意跟随他, 及要求独立 (或换另一辞, 自治)?
• thefooledmass April 22, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Talking about Panchan, let’s get something straight: all previous Panchan (and Dalai) Lamas were sought by local monks and approved by central government in Beijing. And in fact, the reincarnation scheme of Dalai and Panchan was initially designed by Beijing government in Qing dynasty. There was no precedence Dalai announcing a Panchan: they don’t even belong to the same sect, for budda’s sake! It’s just like US AirForce commander appointing the next commander of US army. Leave this to Bush please.
And there used to be fights between these two groups of leaders, particularily between the current(14th) Dalai and the previous(10th) Panchan. So what makes the 14th Dalai an authority to announce a Panchan? (Oh yeah, to make it a longer stretch, Dalai was living in India, how can he go pick a candidate in China?)
Following the traditional rule, the central government picked a Panchan. Hands down.
Don’t believe it? Learn some history for yourself.
【中文翻譯】
thefooledmass 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上10:43
谈到班禅, 让我们弄清一件事情: 之前所有的班禅(及dl)喇嘛都是由当地僧人找到, 然后由北京中央政府确认的。事实上, dl及班禅转世制度是由清朝北京政府所设计的。(译注: 此处有误, 应该是金瓶掣签是由清乾隆所定, 但转世之说, 在此之前已有。) 从前没有先例由dl来宣布班禅: 佛爷, 他们都不属于一个派系。(译注: 又错了, dl跟班禅都是黄教格鲁派的, 只是各有转世系统, 但两人的宗教政治地位是平等的) 就像由美国空军总司令来委任下任的美军陆军总司令。这该留给小布做的, 拜托。
还有从前这两组领袖, 特别是现在(14世)dl跟前任(10世)班禅素来不和。那怎会让14世dl有权指定一个班禅呢? (对啦, 再扯长一点, dl人在印度, 他怎去中国去挑一个候选人?)
根据传统规则, 中央政府选定班禅, 其他的手都给缩开。不信? 自己看历史教教自己去。
• suqing17 April 22, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Well, I agree with most of the arguments thefooledmass made. But there is a technical mistake. Panchan and Dalai do belong to the same sect: the Gelug (the yellow hat sect). Neither can represent all Tibetans, because there are multiple religious sects in Tibet.
【中文翻譯】
suqing17 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上11:35
thefooledmass提出的大部份论点我都同意, 但有一个技术错误, 班禅跟dl是同一派: (黄教)格鲁派的。谁都不能代表所有西藏人, 因为西藏有多个不同的宗教教派。
• Anonymous April 23, 2008 at 12:50 am
thefooledmass- nice try you got some things right but many important things wrong
“There was no precedence Dalai announcing a Panchan: they don’t even belong to the same sect, for budda’s sake!”
Could you provide support for these statements?
I believe that they are both false.
Here is a quotation from a noted scholar on Tibetan Buddhism and history on the history of the selection of the PL. It was written in 1995 the year the DL chose Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th PL.
“During his lifetime, Gendün Drüp was given the title ‘Panchen’ (’Great Scholar’ by his contemporary Bodong Choklay Namgyel. The successive abbots of Tashi Lhünpo inherited this title. In the seventeenth century, the fifth Dalai Lama gave Tashi Lhünpo to his teacher, Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen (1567-1662), the fifteenth abbot of the monastery. As head of Tashi Lhünpo, he was known as ‘Panchen,’ but he received the distinctive title ‘Panchen Lama’ from the fifth Dalai Lama, who announced that Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen would reincarnate as a recognisable child. The title ‘Panchen Lama’ was retroactively conferred on his two previous incarnations, although they did not belong to Tashi Lhünpo monastery. Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen’s successor was later recognised as the fourth Panchen Lama. From that time until the present day, the Dalai Lamas have traditionally recognised the Panchen Lamas, and the Panchen Lamas in turn figure prominently in the search for the Dalai Lamas. ”
-so clearly the article states that the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama have been responsible for choosing each other
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html
“all previous Panchan(and Dalai) Lamas were sought by local monks and approved by central government in Beijing”
Hmm… I’ll quote the same source that discusses this issue.
“In addition to these moves, China’s leaders have launched a propaganda campaign which claims that Chinese government officials have overseen the selection of tülkus since the Qing dynasty, a claim that is historically baseless. Several recent articles in government newspapers have asserted that the Qing emperor Qianlong in 1793 sent a golden urn to Tibet with instructions that the ninth Dalai Lama should be chosen by lots drawn from the urn. Tibetan historical records indicate that the emperor’s instructions were ignored, and the Dalai Lama was chosen according to traditional methods of selection, but in a face-saving move that was to have long-term implications, the emperor’s representatives (amban) convinced Tibetan authorities to allow them to proclaim in China that the emperor’s directives had been followed.
While Chinese officials have often visited Tibet for enthronement ceremonies and passed on the good wishes of emperors or other heads of state, there is no historical evidence that a Chinese official has ever had any direct role in the selection process, nor have any been more than observers. The present situation is roughly comparable to the Australian government sending a representative to the Vatican for the investiture of a Pope and later claiming to have sole authority to choose his successor. ”
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html
anyways since when does an atheist government declare who the reincarnation of a buddhist monk is :\, it’s absurd
ps I know that the atheist communist government have now claimed themselves responsible for discovering all of the reincarnations of reincarnated lamas, as ridiculous as that sounds
【中文翻譯】
Anonymous 貼於: 2008年4月23日, \凌晨12:50
thefooledmass- 很好, 你有些地方对, 但许多重要地方错了。
“从前没有先例由dl来宣布班禅: 佛爷, 他们都不属于一个派系”
你能为这些提供支持佐证吗? 我相信两项都是错的。
这是引自有名藏传佛教及历史学者就班禅喇嘛选定的历史研究, 是在1995年dl喇嘛确认更登确吉尼玛为11世班禅时写的。
“在他的时代, 根敦朱巴就被赠“班禅”之号(他同时代的布敦却雷南杰“大学者”。扎什伦布寺的继后主持承传了这个称号。在17世纪时, dl五世把扎什伦布寺交给了他的老师,罗桑却吉坚赞(Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen (1567-1662)), 该寺的第15任主持。作为扎什伦布寺之首, 他也称为“班禅”, 但他自dl五世那里得到特殊的称号“班禅喇嘛”, 而且宣布罗桑却吉坚赞会转世作灵童。“班禅喇嘛”就追封及他之前两次的转世, 虽然他们并不属于扎什伦布寺。罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者后来被承认为班禅四世。从那时起到现在, dl喇嘛按传统承认班禅喇嘛, 班禅也一直在寻找dl喇嘛的占重要地位。”
-所以明显在文章中说明dl喇嘛跟班禅喇嘛一直负责选定另一位。
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html
“之前所有的班禅(及dl)喇嘛都是由当地僧人找到”
嗯嗯, 我引用讨论这问题的同一资源:
“除了这些行动, 中国领导还发起文宣声称中国政府官方从清代开始一直监督图嘉的选定, 那说法是没历史根据的。最近官方报纸声称清朝皇帝乾隆在1793年给西藏发了一个金瓶, 要求按照指示从瓶内掣签选出dl九世。西藏的历史纪录显示皇帝的诏告没有受重视, dl还是按照传统方法选定, 但作为有长远意义的一个保存颜面的做法, 皇帝的办事大臣(amban, 译注, 满文baita be icihiyara amban 清政府于回疆的喀什噶尔、叶尔羌、和田及藏区的拉萨、西宁和外蒙古的库伦等地设办事大臣，掌管该地军政, http://bbs.cqzg.cn/thread-516320-1-1.html)说服西藏官员让他们在中国宣布皇帝谕示已按照执行。
中国官员是经常去西藏参加坐床仪式, 转达皇帝或其他领导的祝贺, 但没有历史证明中国官员有任何直接决定选择过程, 或在旁观之外有更多的参与。
现在的情况可以勉强跟澳洲政府派代表去梵谛冈参加教宗就职礼, 其后却说有专利去选他的继任人。”
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html
不管怎样, 一个无神论的政府宣布一个佛教僧人的转世, 那是很可笑的
再者: 我知道无神论政府现在宣称他们负责寻找所有转世喇嘛的转世灵童, 听来都很荒谬。
• Palang April 23, 2008 at 10:27 am
Yes, they both belong to gelugpa sect. Dalai lama is higher than Panchen but my father told me they have also been rivalry because they always fight for power
【中文翻譯】
Palang貼於: 2008年4月23日, 早晚上10:27
对, 他们都属于格鲁派。dl喇嘛比班禅高一点, 但我爸告诉我他们也一直斗争因为他们永远争夺权利。
• suqing17 April 23, 2008 at 10:57 am
Actually, Panchan and Dalai have equal status within the sect. The higher power Dalai has over Panchan is secular.
【中文翻譯】
suqing17 貼於: 2008年4月23日, 早上10:57
事实上, 班禅与dl在派内是平等地位的。dl权力比班禅大, 那是俗人看法。
[ 本帖最后由 ltbriar 于 2008-6-8 14:10 编辑 ] |
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楼主: ltbriar
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发表于 2008-6-8 10:02
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