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发表于 2009-2-17 05:11
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Pekingduck（北京烤鸭）的读后感激发了热烈的讨论
1.by cina
不要浪费你的时间去试图说服那些头脑狭隘的愚蠢的中国人。平常的中国人只是那些独裁者的奴隶。他们没有自己的思想。独裁者那样做是为了他们自己。与中国打交道是与那些独裁者（这里觉得翻译成高官似乎更合适一些）们打交道，而不是那些可怜的人们。
相信我，中国绝大多数的高官们都喜欢西方文化。他们希望成为西方社会的一份子。但是为了维持他们的统治，他们会向那些可怜的人撒谎。
如果文明世界想要继续取得对于中国的优势，那么就不要去试图 推 翻 政 权（尽管他们已经不再是共产主义了）。他们会尽可能地榨取中国人，而这会让我们西方人受益。
如果我们像在二战中解放日本那样将中国人从那些独裁者手中解放出来，很有可能会再出现一个新的像毛泽东一样的独裁者，而他是西方文明的敌人。他们没有办法拥有民主。中国没有文化启蒙，绝大多数中国人仅仅是农民而已。
2.By Richard
cina,你出什么毛病了？如果你要像一只喋喋不休的小马驹儿一样一个接一个贴你诋毁中国人的帖子的话，请你把这些可笑的话移往别处吧。谢谢！
3.by cina
我学过很长一段时间的中文。我了解中国人的本性。我只是无意中发现这个博客，所以就写了这么多。
在一个海外华人论坛，如果你告诉他们什么是自由，他们会把你当成一个疯狂的精神病。
如果你不喜欢，我离开就是了。
4.by yourfriend
受害者情绪确实是最难摆脱的事情之一。
这里的受害者情绪与美国那种妄想受迫害者（应该这样翻译吧）不同。西方新闻公司不断的污蔑并没有让中国真正获得任何益处（即批评使人进步）。
相反，大多数这类新闻只是一种美国人对于爆炸性新闻的渴望罢了。我们不能否认这样的新闻的确存在很深的偏见。
5 By a chinese
We all know that authority has issues with media like CNN, but it should be note that when it comes to ordinary people, as far as these who do have access to it are concerned, the issues are still there, and I do believe their complaints are legitimate.
我们都知道媒体的结果权威性就像CNN，但他应该更加注意贴近普通百姓，尤其是那些关系到他们利益的，权威仍然在那儿，同时我相信他们的抱怨是合法的。
For example, I just searched on CNN.com for China, video,relevence. Here are the results
例如我以中国为关键词搜寻了cnn.com，视频和相关内容，这里是结果：
1.Rice has “concerns” with China 1:30 updated Sat, August 20, 2005中国关注大米价格
2.Piracy rife in China 1:45 updated Wed, September 14, 2005在中国盗版盛行
3.China: Deng and now 3:03 updated Fri, December 19, 2008中国的过去与现在
4.China’s economy losing steam 2:14 updated Thu, December 18, 2008中国经济失去动力
5.Wal-Mart expanding in China 1:08 updated Tue, October 21, 2008沃尔玛在中国发展
6.China milk crisis ‘deplorable’ 1:57 updated Fri, September 26, 2008中国牛奶的“可叹的”危机
7.Fourth baby dies in China 2:00 updated Thu, September 18, 2008四分之一的中国婴儿死亡
8.China protesters in trouble 2:36 updated Thu, August 21, 2008中国那些抗议者的困境
9.China human rights criticism 1:22 updated Tue, July 29, 2008中国人权批评
10.China blames media 1:28 updated Fri, June 6, 2008 中国责备媒体
Although these reports are true, most of them are pretty much about negative side of China.
虽然这些报道都是真实的，但是这里大部分都是关于中国的负面报道。
Of course you can argue that, when it comes to US,the reports are even more negative. But there is one problem, for an average American who lives in
当然你可以反驳，对于美国媒体有着更多的负面报道。但是这里有个问题，对于一般住在美国的美国人来说当他们读到这些报道，他们知道此外还有其它的内容。
US, read these reports, they know that there are lots of other things going on besides ” shooting incident in California”,”Pope”, etc. These negative
比如“加利福尼亚枪击事件”“教皇”等等，这些关于美国的负面报道只是反映美国生活的一个小方面，他们知道美国不是像新闻说的那样是个地狱。但关于中国，事情不一样
reports about American only reflect a small part of American life, and they know it America is not hell just because why news say. Yet when it comes to
了。
China, things become different.
I had a number of occasions of facing silly questions from Westerners brought up under this environment. As the same negative reports about other
我无数次面对受到这些报道影响的西方人所提出的愚蠢问题。同样的负面报告让他们认为整个中国就是如此的黑暗。
country simple makes them think that is the whole picture of the country.
6 by cina
回复 a chinese
如果你去看中国媒体，你就只能看到另一面（光明面）
7 by your friend 说：
看看中国媒体的报道就知道，挺片面。
其实你也没必要走，“大部分中国人都是农民”这样以偏概全的话以后还是不要说了，还有，别学咱那位老朋友，天天瞎叨叨中国的不是了，谢谢。
8 by richard
回复 cina:如果你们不喜欢，我会离开
你不用离开，但是请不要污辱中国人民（“他们不过是农民”），也不要像我们的一个老朋友一样只是不断重复这句咒语：“中国是邪恶的”
9 by cina
我的那句话无意冒犯。我是一个来自中国大陆的中国人。我知道中国真正的症结所在。在他们的思想中——看不懂 - -b
在他们的逻辑中，必须有一个独裁者来给他们提供好的生活，在中国字典里找不到自由和平等这些词
10. by cina
回复 yourfriend
别试着用脏话开始一场战争
像不像论坛里的JY？
11.by ryan
我想你如果看最近一些关于中国的文章，把它们按照褒、贬、中性分类，就会发现三者比例和报道其他大多数国家的新闻是一致的，当然了，这里指的是拥有多文化背景和政治气候的国家。
搜索一些报道泰国、以色列、俄罗斯、法国、埃及这类国家的新闻和上面做个比较，你会发现这些国家的新闻中大约有60%都是负面报道（至少从你们的新闻标题看来是这样）。
这基本上由于你说的理由
爆炸性新闻。像“夏威夷天气仍然很好”这样的标题不会抓住一个编辑的眼球。而当你在一个黑暗的屋子里挑选一个亮点
——他指向了一个多么小的截面。（准确否？）
不难看出大部分的故事为什么被选中刊登。
这上面有偏见吗？Absolutely（完全没有？）
因为对象中国而有偏见吗？我不这么认为。
最重要是：我们生活在一个自己以前建立的特别依赖媒体的世界里；幸运的是，我们也生活在一个信息多元化的世界里，这使我们获益。
12 by bert
回复“我无数次面对西方人在这这种舆论环境的影响下对我提出的愚蠢问题”
那么在中国的外国人不会从中国人身上得到出于偏见和无知的愚蠢问题吗？
13 By Richard'
There is, however, a deep bias which can’t be denied.
I actually deny that there is deep bias. I will say there is sometimes ignorance, but rarely deep bias. The China story has been glowingly told by the US media, helping to make China’s economic success the envyof the world. In fact, many of those stories were biased in favor of China, and reporters seemed to be stepping all over one another to gush about China’s “economic miracle.”
Where I see ignorance in the US media is the telling of the Tibet storyand certain other hot-button subjects, but I don’t think this isprejudice, and the offending stories are usually written by pundits inthe US who haven’t been to China or know it only superficially.Sometimes there is anti-China bias, but not more than you’d find towardother countries, as Ryan points out.
Comparing China’s own media prejudices to CNN’s would not justify CNN’smistakes or biases, but it still has to be stated for the record: ifyou want to see real media bias, just turn on CCTV and watch a mind-numbing, endless parade of pro-China, anti-China’s “enemies”stories, all told with a straight face. We’re not talking about somequestionably cropped photos, but of blatant sugar-coating and, at times, falsification.
深深的偏见不会消除。
事实上我否认有很深的偏见，我会说，有时是无知的，但很少很深的偏见。中国发生的事情已经告诉美国媒体，也有助中国的经济在世界上取得举世瞩目的成就。事实上，许多人对于有利于中国的事情都存在着怀疑。记者似乎还是前赴后继的描绘着中国的“经济奇迹” 。
我看到无知的美国媒体在报道西藏的事情和其他一些热点问题，但我不认为这是偏见，一些有麻烦的报道通常是不能去中国的美国权威来写，他们只知道一些皮毛，他们有时也带有反华倾向，但是找到的毛病不会超过其他国家，瑞安指出。
比较中国自己媒体的偏见，CNN无法证明CNN存在错误或偏见，但它仍然需要指出事实，如果你想看到真正的媒体的偏见，只要打开CCTV和心态麻木的观看，无休止的亲中示威游行、反华的“敌人”的报道、严肃的面部表情，我们不讨论有关裁剪照片的问题，但是公然的包装，有时还伪造。
14.“...但它仍然需要指出事实，如果你想看到真正的媒体的偏见，只要打开CCTV和心态麻木的观看，无休止的亲中示威游行、反华的“敌人”的报道、严肃的面部表情，我们不讨论有关裁剪照片的问题，但是公然的包装，有时还伪造。”
没有更好的表达，值得重复。
15.不错，看来你的请求斯图尔特已经听到！
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7824255.stm
中国知识分子已签署了一封公开信呼吁抵制国家电视台新闻节目。
信中说，中国的中央电视台（ CCTV ）已从播放新闻和历史连续剧变成对观众宣传洗脑。
谈起这些巧合...我们生活在一个非常有趣的时代...
16.我认为你淡化了媒体有关西藏的偏见，如果您用谷歌搜索关于西藏以外的防火墙，几乎所有的网站都是支持西藏独立。至今，西方媒体仍然质疑中国对西藏的主权，3当月骚乱爆发后，纽约时报开辟了一块中国在西藏恐怖的讨论版。
这种偏见源于长期历史上的反共产主义冷战，加上达赖几十年来反华宣传的工作。使得中国和西方世界产生了根本的分歧。如果西方不接受中国的领土完整，再多的编辑或再好的报告不能解决CNN在中国恶劣的形象问题。
17 By Bao
但是，真正的问题是：是谁造成使中国人民认为CNN或FOX或世界其他媒体在撒谎？
有关媒体关于中国的一个世界性阴谋，这是很彻底的愚蠢和举动，至今听到这件事（3.14）的多样性的不同意见？我猜不会。
奇怪吗？他们欺骗了你！所有的，大家伙！
有趣的是看看中国人民是怎么说的，他们认为自己的媒体怎么样？一旦人们变得更加直言不讳了，就会发现他们生活的世界充斥着谎言。
2009年趋势是人民...它已经开始，并持续强大。
18 By BC
@Ryan
You make an excellent point, sir and something I agree with whole heartedly. There appears to be a understanding among some in China(Anti-CNN, I’m looking at you for starters) that their apparent victim hood at the hands of beastly western media ‘conspirators’ is some how unique only to China.
你的主意不错，先生和我对这件事的看法一致，在中国需要宽容（反CNN，我期待以你开始），显而易见他们是西方媒体“阴谋”的牺牲者。
19 By Bao
“that their apparent victim hood at the hands of beastly western media ‘conspirators’ is somehow unique only to China.”
Actually it’s not, Iran jumped in the same boat a while ago… Any links between the 2 nations?
I'm just asking the question. Don’t shoot the messenger.
显而易见他们是西方媒体“阴谋”的牺牲者。
其实不是这样，伊朗不久前逃离了同一条船...连接这两个国家（这段不知道什么意思，是不是责怪西方媒体只指责中国，而放松了伊朗）？
我只问个问题，不要目标对着信史。
20 By Bao;
I know I’m some what of a clown here on this , but I was no joking when I said that in 2009 we might witness a total Internet black out in China.
The fire is spreading much faster than I expected it would.
我知道有一些小丑在这个blog里，但我不开玩笑，2009年在中国我们将可以看到一个黑暗的互联网。
烈火蔓延的迅速，超过我们的想象。
21 By yourfriend
foreigners in China don’t get silly questions from Chinese based on mis-information and prejudice?
Not nearly as much as Chinese do in those respective “foreign countries” of said person’s origin.
Is it biased? Absolutely. Is it biased because it is China. I don’t think so.
Well, yes. It is biased because, for the most part, America is culturally illiterate. So you can kinda say they are biased because it’s China, and by extension a non-European country. On top of that,China is considered “the enemy”. News on Russia is equally negative,but on reports on Russia you don’t see as many outright lies flying around.
helping to make China’s economic success the envy of the world.
Not from what I’ve seen. 90% of the time it’s some idiot whining abouthow China is a “trade cheat” that keeps their currency low to steal american jobs and ruin american ECONOMY and how they HATE american’s freedoms etc etc etc
if you want to see real media bias, just turn on CCTV
Again, it is less insidious because everyone knows CCTV is a steamingpile of crap. Americans actually believe the shit they see on TV.
外国人到中国不会带着对中国固有愚蠢的错误和偏见？并不像中国那么多人对“外国”解释原因。
存在偏见吗？绝对存在偏见。因为它是中国。我不这么认为。嗯，是的。有偏见，因为在大多数情况下，美国有许多文盲，因此，你可以说他们是有点偏见，因为它是中国，并且延伸到许多非欧洲国家，最重要的是，中国被视为“敌人” 。新闻对俄罗斯同样是消极的，但对俄罗斯描述不会看到铺天盖地的谎言。世界的嫉妒促使中国的经济取得举世瞩目的成就。以我看来，一些白痴花90 ％的时间发牢骚认为中国是“贸易作弊” ，
他们的货币低通胀是偷走了美国的工作和破坏美国的经济，以及如何憎恨美国人的自由等等等等
如果你想看到真正的媒体的偏见，只要打开CCTV,再次，它是阴险的，这是很少有的，大家都知道CCTV是带着怒气的一堆垃圾。美国人确实相信他们看的电视节目在胡扯。
22 By Bao
Glad you finally woke up our California / Vancouver friend, we were missing you. A bit too quiet here recently.
很高兴你终于醒了我们的加州/温哥华的朋友，我们缺少你。最近这里有点太安静。
23 By bert
And foreigners in China don’t get silly questions from Chinese based on mis-information and prejudice?
Not nearly as much as Chinese do in those respective “foreign countries” of said person’s origin.
Not nearly as much” Do you have evidence of this?
外国人到中国不会带着对中国固有愚蠢的错误和偏见？并不像中国那么多人对“外国”解释原因。
你有很多这方面的证据吗？
24 By Bao
“News on Russia is equally negative, but on reports on Russia you don’t see as many outright lies flying around.”
You’ll see soon that it’s all falling into place, in an “harmonized way”.
So stop worrying about this, it’s out of your league。
新闻对俄罗斯同样是消极的，但对俄罗斯描述不会看到铺天盖地的谎言。
不久你会看到所有摔倒的地方，有一条“和谐的路”。（不知道什么意思）
不用担心，你的盟友完蛋了。
25 By stuart
To this day the Western media still question China’s sovereignty over Tibet.”
Of course. That’s what an unbiased media should do, because there DOES exist a legitimate question - historically, politically, and culturally- over the sovereignty of Tibet.
China’s idea of responsible journalism is adherence to the party line,while the western model prefers that an issue be explored from all sides. Whereas the former denies the right to question, the latter encourages it. Western journalism might not always strike a fairbalance, but when you stop asking questions altogether the truth becomes more distant.
Just as China has the right to question Britain’s sovereignty over the Falkland Islands, so other countries have the right to question China’s stance on Tibet. Both issues are full of historical complexity. But if you don’t ask the questions, you’re not going to find any answers.
至今，西方媒体仍然质疑中国对西藏的主权。正如中国有权质问英国的福克兰群岛拥有主权，因此其他国家也有权质问中方西藏的立场问题。这两个问题都充满了历史的复杂性。但是，如果你不问这些问题，你不会找到任何答案。
当然。这是一个不带偏见的媒体应该做的，因为确实存在一个比西藏的主权更合理的问题-历史，政治，文化。中国坚守新闻报道的思想是坚持党的路线，而西方模式倾向于一个问题从四面八方加以探讨，前者否认问题的正确性，后者鼓励它。西方新闻报道可能并不总是求得公平的平衡，但是当你停止寻问问题的真相就会变得更加遥远。
26 By Bao
Am I the only one that does not get it why such an interesting to pic such as: Chinese intellectuals have signed an open letter calling for a boycott of state television news programmes.
Is totally ignored in the thread? I’ not calling for attention here, but it’s astounding to see how little impact it’s having on the drones.
That’s scary, and freaky…
我一次也没有得到过如此有趣的图片：中国知识分子已签署了一封公开信，呼吁抵制国家电视台新闻节目。
完全不理会这种路线（斗争），我不会关注这里，但是这看起来是一场小的蜂群之间的冲突。
这是可怕的，和古怪...
27 By Bao
Thank you for your answers tonight HAL900.
感谢你今晚的答复HAL900 。
28 By Bao
HAL9000, typo…
HAL9000,排字错误…
29 By stuart
Perfect timing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7824255.stm
完美的时刻
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7824255.stm
30 By stuart
Oops! Sorry, Bao - only just saw your previous link.
哎呦，抱歉，Bao - 只看到你以前的链接。
31 By 山寨蟹肉
当然，这是一个公正的媒体所应当做的。因为从历史，政治和文化方面来看，西藏主权确实存在一个合法性的问题。
“合法”的定义是什么？如果说中国对西藏的主权应当被彻底调查和质疑的话，那美国对德克萨斯，加利福尼亚和夏威夷的主权难道不应该同样接受这种国际性的调查吗？还有法国对科西嘉，英国对福克兰，丹麦对格陵兰岛等等。如果真的将这种“彻底的调查”应用开来的话，那理论上所有国家对该国的每一片地区的主权都理所应当受到国际上的质疑，不是吗？
那好，我承认西藏问题是合法的。那么夏威夷问题呢？德克萨斯问题？科西嘉问题呢？还有现任美国政府的合法性这个更大的问题呢？我的意思是，如果我们用同样的标准去衡量，是否它就是一个不合法的政府呢？它屠杀和驱逐了数以百万计的印第安人。
如果你说西藏问题是合法的，那么你不得不承认夏威夷问题，德克萨斯问题，科西嘉问题，福克兰问题同样也是合法的。
然而媒体却单单聚焦西藏问题，仿佛其他的问题都不再是问题，那些爆炸性新闻和面对其他问题时的诚实如今何在？
答案当然是因为现如今西方媒体掌握着世界舞台上的主要话语权。也许这并不是一个世界范围的阴谋，但你能够否认西方媒体在设定“每日焦点”、无中生有、小事化大方面还有更大潜力吗？如果是你掌握着这样一个有巨大影响力的声音，你能够否认它可以并正被用来推动某些议程和引导人们的意见吗？
试想一下如果现在是一个中国（及其他东亚同盟国）主宰的世界，世界的主要声音来自于中国媒体（不是以愚钝和宣传式的CCTV的形式，而是一个更圆滑，更“专业”，更“和谐”的形式存在，比如中国全球CNN和BBC），那么西藏将不会在新闻中出现，反而我们能创造出一个美国在对夏威夷和德克萨斯的所有权上的“争议”，让可怜的土著人对黑暗的美国政府所作的斗争成为一段英雄故事，并且让一些中国的名人（试想世界的商业主义和娱乐中心现在是在中国）成为国人高贵、优秀的精神领袖的代言人和朋友。我的意思是，那么我是否可以说那将同样是一个合理的争议？如果任何人对我提出质疑，我会说：“这是一个负责任的记者应该做的。”
有时,你不能太单纯太幼稚。当今世界是以西方为中心，所有的声音，所有的注意，所有的“每日焦点”，所有的“奋斗目标”，所有的“行为准则”都是由作为世界引力中心的西方来制定的。所有你的观点、言论和价值观体系都是在那之下的产物。当然我也承认我对此无能为力。
但作为一个中国人，一个传统的中国人，我必须说这未必是唯一或者最好的出路。为什么我们不能探寻其他的办法？所谓“你们代表落后势力及机构，我们代表先进势力，因此世界必须向我们靠拢”的说法难道不是一种本质上的独裁吗？就好比那位写过“历史的终点”的历史学家。真的是历史的终点吗？我表示怀疑。（翻译：dbkid1985@sina.com）
32.By stuart “I admit Tibet question is legitimate.”
Excellent! The duckpond has been harmonized. Goodnight.
33.By Bao Youstill live in a world driven by confrontations and bigotry and I pityyou. You are part of the past Crabby, and your ideology does not standa chance in 2009 and the future will probe you wrong, like it provedwrong many of your kinds.
All the Chinese people are much wiser than what you wish they are.They will not follow your narrow minded agenda, about the west againstthe east.
They are more clever, they understand that today in our world we are far beyond this kind of thinking.
The future is bright for China, and do you know why ? Because theChinese people understand now that they are citizens of the world. Moreand more, everyday, one Chinese person is waking up and understandingthat all this nationalist bullshit means nothing. It is nothing butempty rhetoric from an old age. Prehistoric thinking.
You will not prevail, never, never. And I wish we all die fighting for this ideal if we have to.
Democracy and freedom will prevail, like it or not. And not it willnot bring chaos and instant doom upon the Chinese people. It will onlybring what any of our kind, the human race, is hoping for , freedom.
34. By AndyR Texas: voted to join the union 1845
California: same 1850
Hawaii: same 1950
In all these cases, the people of those territories were asked tovote on whether or not they wanted to become a state and then had to gothrough an annexation process in which the petition for admittance wasdebated by the United State Congress and finally ratified.
I’ll let you do your own comparison to the Tibet situation…pleasestop making uninformed arguments. It took me five minutes to do theresearch on this, let’s think a little before making wild historicalcomparisons.
35:By Imitation Crabmeat
Texas: voted to join the union 1845
California: same 1850
Hawaii: same 1950
Well can I not be a very diligent journalist and say these votes werecast without international supervision, and may be under duress.Right?I mean that’s what a responsible journalist does!
All the Chinese people are much wiser than what you wish they are.
I agree they are wiser than you think. They have seen the experience ofthe fall of the USSR, they have seen the continued non-developmentofthe entire Latin America after taking the pills by the WorldBankeconomists. They know that a nation’s issues are complex, andjustcomplete Westernization has prove to NOT work.
I agree of course in principle that all societies need to modernizeanddemocratize. Yet in what form? In what path? That is the bigquestion.
If you think that world history has reached an “end”. And we havesettled on the final mode of development of politics and humansocieties (the liberal western model as embodied by the US and WesternEurope), and what remains is just figuring out how to “bring the restup” to be like you. If that is your world view, if that is what youthink where the world should go. Then are you not the biggest andthedeepest victim of “brainwashing”? I think you are a deeper victimthanI am. Because at least I don’t claim that the Chinese regime andits model is the final version, and has universal application. I don’t.Idon’t claim that. I think the Chinese model needs to drasticallychangeand evolve, and probably does not have universal application. Soin that sense, I am more modest than you are :) I am more open to newideas than you are
To end, I quote a passage from Yu Keping, senior policy analyst for the CCP. In his essay “Democracy is a Good Thing”.
Democracy is a good thing, but that is not to say that democracycomesunconditionally…. But the timing and speed of the development ofdemocracy and the choice of the form and system of democracyareconditional. An ideal democratic system must not only be related totheeconomic state and level of development of society, theregionalpolitics and international environment, it must also beintimatelyrelated to the national tradition of political culture, thequality ofthe politicians and the people, and the daily customs of thepeople. It requires the wisdom of the politicians and the people todetermine how to pay the minimum political and social price in orderthe attain themaximum democratic effects.
On one hand, we want to absorb all the excellent results from thepolitical culture of all mankind, including all the excellent resultsofdemocratic politics; but on the other hand, we will not importanoverseas political model. Our construction of political democracymustbe closely integrated with the history, culture, tradition andexistingsocial conditions in our nation. Only in this way can thepeople ofChina truly enjoy the sweet fruits of political democracy.
德克萨斯州：以投票方式于1845加入美利坚合众国
加利福尼亚州：以投票方式于1850加入美利坚合众国
夏威夷州：以投票方式于1950加入美利坚合众国
我是个不称职的记者，我不知道这些投票是不是在国际社会的监督下进行的，也许是被迫的，对吗？我的意思是说什么才是一个有责任感的记者该做的！
中国人民比你们想象中的要聪明得多。
我觉得中国人民比你们想的还要聪明。他们看到了苏联失败的经历，看到了整个拉美国家在服用了世界银行开出的药后经济停滞。他们知道国家问题的复杂，知道照搬西方的是不起作用的。
我赞成所有的社会都应该现代化，要发展经济这一原则。但是用什么模式？走什么道路？都是个大课题。
如果你认为世界史已经到了终点。并且我们已经建立了最终的政治生活和人类社会的模式（美国和西欧的西方自由模式），然而剩下的仅仅是使余下的国家和你们一样。如果这是你的世界观，如果这就是你认为的世界潮流。那么难道你不是受到最全方位的洗脑吗？我认为你受到的欺骗大过我。因为至少我不要求中国的政治体制与模式是最终的形式的这种说法，其他中国人也没有这样的诉求。我没有。我不要求那样。我认为中国模式必须有渐进式的改变，并且很可能不是全体中国人都这样想。因此在这种意义上，我们比你更温和.（我们比你们更开放更能接受新观点。）
最后，我引述来自俞可平（人名音译）高级政治分析家在他的文章《民主是件好事》中的一段话。
“民主是件好事，但民主不是绝对的……在一定的时机在一定的发展速度和合适的体制下选择适合的方式和民主体系是民主的条件。民主体系不仅仅要与经济和社会发展水平以及政治信仰和国际环境相联系，她还必须和国家的政治文化传统，政治家及人民的素质，以及日常生活习惯相适应。她要求政治家和人民怎样用智慧去以最小的政治和社会会价值来获得最大的民主成果。”
一方面，我们吸收一切政治文化的优秀成果，包括所有优秀的民主政治成果；但是另一方面，我们不会一个进口国外政治模式。我们会在我国建立一种和历史，文化，传统，社会条件相配套的民主政治。唯有这样中国人民才能真正接受享受到民主政治的果实。
40 By HongXing
Imitation Crab Meat. You are being too nice and gentlemanly with these American dullards, these democracy-worshippers.
Imitation Crab Meat，你这人对这些只会崇拜民主的白痴美国人太好了、太有绅士风度了。
The only way they’ll sit down and talk to you nicely, the only day when the Tibet issue is no longer an issue, when the Taiwan issue is no longer an issue, is when China has enough intercontinental missiles to cover most population centers the entire Europe and US, when China has enough spy satellites to see every car plates in the entire US East Coast, when China’s navy can go head to head with any US carrier fleet whether in the Pacific or the Atlantic, when China’s military bases areas numerous as America’s
只有当中国有足够多的洲际导弹覆盖欧美的所有大城市，当中国有足够多的间谍卫星看清美国东部海岸每辆车的车牌，当中国海军无论在太平洋还是大西洋都能与美国舰队并驾齐驱，当中国的军事基地数量与美国一样多的时候，西藏问题才不在是问题，台湾问题也不在是问题，这是唯一让他们坐下来和你友好讨论的方法。
That is the day, when we can sit down and talk such gentlmanly issues as human rights, freedom, etc.
那一天才是我们坐下来和他们友好地、绅士地讨论诸如人权、自由之类的东西的时候。
Until then, just keep your head down and work hard.
在那之前，埋下头、努力工作。
41 By Richard
HX, evil and stupid as usual.
HX，你一如既往的邪恶和愚蠢。
42 By el chino
Democracy has been adopted as the political system by most of the countries in the world today, including the African and the Latin American countries. But when it comes to China, democracy seems to bean impossibly complicated and difficult thing for the Chinese and their ruler to accomplish (but they would still tell you it is not that they don’t want it). Just look at Crab meat’s excuses: “an ideal democratic system must not only be related to the economic state and level of development of society, the regional politics and international environment, it must also be intimately related to the national tradition of political culture, the quality of the politicians and the people, and the daily customs of the people. It requires the wisdom of the politicians and the people, …etc”.ww
如今，世界上多数国家都信奉民主的政治制度，包括非洲和拉丁美洲的国家。但是对中国，民主看起来是无解的，很难被中国人和他们的统治者实现（但是他们任然会告诉你这并不是他们不想要民主）。看看Crab meat的借口：“一个理想的民主系统不仅仅与一个社会的经济、发展水平、地方政治和国际环境有关，它也与一个民族的政治文化传统、与政治家和人民的性格、与当日人们的日常习惯密切相关。它需要政治家和人民的共同智慧。”
Complicated and difficult or not, the Africans and Latinos have successfully built their own democracy and Chinese still just can’t. In the meantime, they try to prove themselves and impress the others with how many Olympic gold medals they have won and their space project. The Chinese people did well in these fields, but when compared to other people, they seem to be politically retarded and can only hang on to their traditional 5000-year old totalitarianism.
有那么复杂和困难么，非洲和拉丁美洲已经成功的建立了自己的民主制度，但是中国却不能。与此同时，他们想用所获得的奥运会金牌数以及太空计划来证明自己，并影响其他人（对中国的看法）。在这些领域，中国人干的不错，但是与其他人相比，他们在政治上是发展迟缓的，仅仅只能炫耀下他们那古老的的5000年极权统治而已。
43 By yourfriend
“Not nearly as much” Do you have evidence of this？
“不像多数那样” 你有关于这个的证据么？
Yes. Anyone with a brain knows this. Have you been lynched yet? Case closed
是的，任何一个有头脑的人都知道这个。你被处以私刑（诽谤？）了么？相关的案例？
How would we feel, Western people, trapped in our warrior
（不明白 暂不翻译）
Warriors have honor.
勇士是荣耀的。
44 By Richard
Looks like we’ve strayed off-topic a bit. Chino, democracy is imperfect and I’m not sure China is ready for a complete makeover. But it is ready for serious reform leading in the path toward democracy .Unfortunately those reforms are coming mighty slowly, and sometimes the government seems to be going in the wrong direction altogether (witness the recent spike in web censorship). An important step in the right direction will be ending the victim mentality and focusing on what really matters instead of poorly cropped photos and the like.
好像我们有点跑题了。Chino，民主并不完美，我也不肯定中国会使其完善。但是该是认真进行改革的时候了。不幸的是，这些改革来的慢了点，而且有些政府看上去已经走错了方向（比如最近的网络检查）。要回到正确的方向，重要的是排除受害者情绪，把目光集中在真正的问题上，而不是裁剪的很差的照片之类的事（可能指代CNN有意剪切照片的事）。
45 By el chino
Alright, let’s come back to the victimhood. Who victimized the Chinese people most and decimated them once in a while? Of course their own government and their own rulers in the successive dynasties. But the Chinese people are misled by their government to focus on the European exploitation and mistreatment of Chinese in the recent 100 years and made oblivious of the crimes against humanities committed by each of their own rulers against Chinese in their history, including the current govt.1 e4 |2 y6 m; T8 i* |, D
好吧，让我们回到受害者情绪。谁曾经伤害且杀害最多的中国人？当然是他们自己各个朝代的政府和统治者。但是中国人被自己的政府误导了，让他们的目光集中在最近100年欧洲的侵略上，却遗忘了他们历史上每个统治者对中国人所作的那些反人权的罪行，包括现在的政府。
46 By yourfriend
An important step in the right direction will be ending the victim mentality!
44 By Richard
You mean among foreign whiners in China? I agree. However, the Chinese don’t really have a “victim complex”. It’s just pure hatred. I have never once heard Chinese people ask for reparations from anyone
你是指在中国的那些外国悲情者么？这个我同意。但是，中国人没有真正意义上“受害者情结”。这只是纯粹的仇恨（谁对谁的仇恨？）。我从未听说过，哪怕一次，中国人对其他人要求赔偿。
Of course their own government and their own rulers in the successive dynasties
45 By el chino
Uh, no. It was usually a combination of bad government + bad foreigners and natural disasters. Again, holding foreign countries responsible does not mean they let the CCP off the hook. The main difference is that the CCP serves a purpose.. occasionally. That, and the CCP has to at times answer to citizens. You haven’t done a single thing for China.
不是那样，这通常是一个坏政府+坏的外国人+自然灾害的共同结果。当然，提到外国对此应负的责任并不意味着他们在替中国共产党推脱。最主要的不同是：中国共产党间或总还是为中国做了些事儿，而且中国共产党有时也不得不响应中国民众的要求；而你们却从未为中国做过一件事儿。
and made oblivious of the crimes against humanities committed by each of their own rulers against Chinese in their history
45 By el chino
Again, you’re missing the point. Almost all governments have a history of treating their own people like crap. Europe stands out in that it not only slaughtered millions upon millions of its own all through out history, they have also caused countless deaths in other countries.
您又没有理解我的意思。几乎所有的政府都有视国民如草芥的历史。欧洲更是脱颖而出，贯穿整个历史的是，它不仅仅屠杀了自己亿万的人民，还给其它国家带来了无数的死亡。
47 By Richard
Ferin, not many countries come close to China in terms of inflicting misery on its own. In terms of percentages, Cambodia comes to mind, as does Stalin’s Russia, North Korea and maybe some candidates in Africa. Don’t deny Mao’s outstanding performance in the massive distribution of starvation, torture, cerebral erasure and death
Ferin,就对自己的国家造成的痛苦来说，能和中国相比的国家不多。就百分比来说，高棉柬埔寨算一个，还有斯大林的俄罗斯，北朝鲜，也许非洲还有一些候选国家。还有别否认毛在大规模的饥饿、折磨、洗脑和死亡中的杰出表现。
48 By yourfriend
You’re forgetting Nazi Germany that killed 11% of its own population through their stupid war. By most estimates, Mao didn’t come close to achieving this.
你忘记了纳粹德国在他们愚蠢的战争了杀死了自己人口的11%。即使按最大的估计，毛也没达到这么多。
Like I said, I have never defended Mao. I’m just not letting these oh-so-pure and wonderful European countries off the hook for their disgusting barbarity
像我所说的，我从未替毛辩护过。我只是不想让这些纯洁美好的欧洲国家忘记他们那些令人作呕的残暴行为。
As for the other “advanced” nations, they were too busy slaughtering others by the millions to kill themselves. If you want to go back in to the pre-modern times as the original poster did, then there’s Japan with the non-stop civil wars, intra-European wars since time immemorial and their 4,000+ years of feudalism/slavery, etc.
对其它“先进”国家，他们太忙于屠杀数百万的其它人以至于他们顾不上屠杀自己人了。如果您是想像楼主那样回溯到现代之前的那些年代，则日本有永不休止的内战，欧洲有四千多年的封建/奴隶制度和各国之间的战争
Again, I have never once defended Mao. You are making assumptions just as el chino is. Don’t assume everyone in China approves of the CCP or Mao Zedong, I’ve yet to meet one who does. Then again, I probably hang around a different sort of crowd.
再一次重申，我从未替毛辩护。这只是你像el chino一样做的假设。不要认为每个中国人都赞成中国共产党或者毛，我还没碰到一个这样的。又一想，也许我交往的人群和您的不同。
49 By yourfriend
rather I should say “completely approves”
也许我应该说“完全赞成”
50 By Bao
And how about the genocide of the Neanderthals by the homo sapiens, 30000 years ago?
那么，30000年前智人对穴居人的种族灭绝又如何呢？
I hope you keep in mind this important event as well, and from now on I suggest that you include it in your ad nauseam rhetoric.
我希望你也考虑到这件重要的事，并且从今之后，我建议你把这个例子加入到你那些令人作呕的花言巧语中去。
Would be a shame to forget this one because it makes guilty every single human on earth.
忘记这个是很令人羞愧的，因为地球上的每个人都有罪。
51 By Richard
Ferin, I don’t put Nazi Germany in the same category as Russia orChina. NG is higher on the evil scale, but most of that 11 percent were German soldiers killed in wars outside of Germany’s borders, or Jews and gypsies Hitler considered non-German. No one’s saying Europe is so fine and perfect; I included Russia in my short list, and will include any other country in Europe that executed, starved or terrorized millions of its own. And this blog never, ever lets Nazi barbarity “off the hook,” so please think before you type
Ferin，我并不把纳粹德国与俄罗斯或者中国看成一类。NG更加罪恶，但是更重要的是那个11%是死在了德国境外的德国士兵，或者也有犹太人和吉普赛人，虽然希特勒不把他们当作德国人。没人说欧洲很完美，我的名单中包括俄罗斯，并且将包括欧洲的任何国家，只要（这个国家？）有上百万人在被处死，受饿或者生活与恐怖统治下。这个博客从未也决不替纳粹的残忍开脱，因此在你打出这些字前请三思。
But why do we keep having the same discussion with you? This has been rehashed too many times. All nations have blood on their hands. If you know this blog you know I constantly call out the crimes of the Bush administration. No favorites here, murder is murder.
但是为什么我们仍然保持和你讨论这件事？虽然它已经被老调重弹很多次了。每个民族手上都沾满了鲜血。如果你知道这个博客，你就会知道我一直在说布什政府的犯罪行为。我没任何偏向，谋杀者就是谋杀者。
Look at how you’ve highjacked and mangled the thread. The only reason Mao came up was because you made the statement that all countries are bad to its own citizens, that China is like the rest. This begged thereference to Mao - of course China under Mao is in a league by itself, with runners-up like Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin close behind. And now you throw it back and ask why I’m bringing up Mao and putting words in your mouth. No one made any assumptions that you supported Mao, and your saying that someone did so is simply false. What I’m saying is that the example of Mao’s holocaust belies your argument of equal guilt among all nations in how they treat their citizens. Sadly, China still has a lot further to go than many other nations in this area. I can supply lots of links if you need examples
看看你是怎么强奸民意并破坏了这些帖子。毛之所以出现在话题中，只是因为你声称所有国家对自己的国民都很坏，中国和其它地方也一样。这就引出了毛，当然毛统治下的中国本身在一个联盟中，其领导者像是希特勒之类的，紧接其后的就是Pol Pot和斯大林。现在你又把这些扔回来，还问我为什么把毛也牵扯进来了，并且你没说过这些而是我强加给你的。没有任何人假设你支持毛，你说过这么做的人都是虚伪的。我所说的是，毛的大屠杀的例子把你的所有民族的罪孽是相同的观点掩饰在他们怎么对待自己的国民里了。可悲的是，比起这个地区的大多数其它民族，中国仍然更有未来。如果你要例子，我可以给你很多链接。
The US carries a large share of guilt for exporting war and destabilizing other governments and more recently for licensing torture; Germany carries the lion’s share of guilt for race-based extermination; Pol Pot for ideological extermination; and China wins a gold medal in the category of inflicting a quarter-century of non-stop misery and death on its own citizens
美国背负者很多罪恶，比如发动战争，动摇其它国家的政府，最近如合法的折磨等；德国的罪恶在种族灭绝；Pol Pot的罪恶消灭意识形态；中国则在另一方面赢得了金牌，即让自己的国民1/4个世纪中不停的遭受痛苦和死亡。
Read carefully. No one is saying you support Mao - only that your are also ppy historian and generalizer, and that every argument you make goesback to a single proposition: America is the bad one, and China is okay even if “mistakes were made,” and that if it did do something horrific,well, America did even worse. I don’t deny America’s done a lot of bad. But you constantly and reflexively react to every comment on China with the predictable, “But in America….” You are a broken record and, at least at the moment, you’re being a troll.
看仔细点，没人说你支持毛，只有你在ppy？历史并且一概而论。你所有的观点都回到同一主张：美国是坏的，中国是好的，即使犯了错误，或者是啥令人毛骨悚然的事，但总之美国更坏。我并不否认美国干了许多坏事，但是你一直本能的反对对中国的每一个评论，说“但是在美国…”你就像一个坏了的录音机，至少这会你一直在不停转圈。
52 By yourfriend
And how about the genocide of the Neanderthals by the homo sapiens, 30000 years ago?
Actually, I have brought this up when facing obnoxious, Euro-apologists. However, the Neanderthals were wiped out by European homo sapiens, not all h. sapiens. Then again, back then they weren’t really genetically European
实际上面对不愉快时，我带来了这些欧洲辩护者（？）。但是，穴居人是被欧洲智人扫地出门的不是所有智人。另外，回过头来实际上他们也不是真正起源自欧洲。
Amusing, but silly.
很有趣吧，但是很愚蠢。
All nations have blood on their hands
51 By Richard
Exactly. This is the point I keep trying to get across. But why is it that posters here try to make it seem as if the PRC is the only nation that does it? If you’re going to use 30-50 year old CCP atrocities as justification for modern arguments you’re really just begging to have someone come in and bring up European crimes against humanity. Of course it’s not conducive to discussion- you preclude that by constantly digging up Mao’s corpse as an indictment of modern China. He’s dead and done- this is something every Chinese person hears when some foreigner apologist gives his typical litany on how the developed nations have no responsibility to the rest of the world.
准确的说，我试图跨过这个观点。但是为什么这的回帖者都试图使人看起来像是只有PRC这个民族干了那些事？如果你打算用30-50年前的中国共产党干的那些残暴行为来作为你现代观点的论据，那么你就实际上牵扯了某些人进来并且也得把欧洲那些反人权的罪行暴露出来。当然，这无益于讨论，你却通过不停的挖掘毛的尸体来作为对现代中国的控告。他已经死了并且过去了。这些每个中国人都听说了，尤其是当一些外国辩护者念叨他那么典型的、冗长的关于为何发达国家对世界上其它地方没任何责任的时候
you made the statement that all countries are bad to its own citizens,that China is like the rest. This begged the reference to Mao
51 By Richard
Jesus Mother**ing Christ, the Mao era is over. Another thing I will never fathom is how the posters here constantly tell Chinese people to “get over” the Nanjing Massacre, Bombing of Shanghai, Unit 731.. etc, but they themselves (that is, the whiny foreigners) will not “get over” Mao when trying hard to make China look bad (at the expense of the people).
基督的母亲生下了（？）救世主，毛时代结束了。另一件我将永远不想知道的是，这儿的人会怎么告诉中国人去忘了南京大屠杀、上海大轰炸、731部队等等，但他们自己（这里指那些好发牢骚的外国人）决不会忘了毛，尤其是要抹黑中国的时候
What I’m saying is that the example of Mao’s holocaust belies yourargument of equal guilt among all nations in how they treat theircitizens。
51 By Richard
And once again I have mentioned that many nations, including almost all European ones, are guilty of unimaginable atrocities against their own people and/or others. This discussion is so ridiculous that I have to take death tolls as a percentage of the population and then divide it by the years to calculate the ruthless efficiency of genocide by nation.
再一次我提到了包括欧洲所有国家的许多国家都对自己的人民或者其他人有着无法想象的残暴行为。这个讨论是如此可笑以至于我不得不把死亡人数当作人口的百分比，然后按年划分，去计算国家种族灭绝的残忍效率。
Remember, it’s another poster who first made the claim that China’s governments were extraordinarily cruel and that this is quantifiable. The reason why I strongly oppose this view is because it is a consistent and erroneous bias that “Western” historians have of Chinese history. The other thing is that the way you blog on China creates a sense of hopelessness that is not conducive to real progress
记住，是另一个人挑起了这个争论，即中国政府是极其残忍的并且是可以计算的。我强烈反对这一关点的理由是，因为这是一个长久以来的错误的偏见，西方历史学家是中国历史的行家（大意）。另一方面你博客上有关中国的事创造了一副毫无希望的景象，而这对真实的过程无任何益处。
You are a broken record and, at least at the moment, you’re being a troll.
51 By Richard
My message is exceedingly clear. When you write you must be careful about how you say things. That is not counting some occasional mistakes(gini coefficients, death tolls). The reason why I bring up America is because the way some posters here carry on, you’d think that they believe America is a good example for China to look to and that all of China’s problems can be fixed by taking a Euro-American path towards industrialization and modernization; which is clearly not the case. In fact, China must be very different from America or they’ll consume the world into a wasteland
我讲的很清楚，当你回复的时候你必须对你说的十分小心。这不是计算一些偶然的错误（基尼系数、死亡人数）。我说到美国只是因为一些人说到了它，他们认为美国是中国最好的样例，所有中国的问题都可以通过欧美化的道路得到修正，并走向工业化和现代化，尽管这不是事实。实际上，中美有很大不同，他们也不会把整个世界消费成废墟。
I’m actually saving you headaches by arguing against deeply ingrained ethnocentrism so you don’t have to hear it from the likes of HX or Math, who are a joke.
我实际上通过对根深蒂固的民族优越的的深入争论，在为你治疗头疼（比喻…），因此你不必再从HX或者Math这种好笑的人那打听这些。
53 By Richard
Thanks Ferin, I’m eternally grateful. Now, about what MacKinnon says about CNN and other media….
谢谢Ferin，感激不尽。现在，看看MacKinnon所说的有关CNN的事以及其它媒体…
54 By Paultard
Mao was probably most evil emperor in Chinese history and he did manyterrible things in culture rev. But do you think its fair to say he murdered 25-35mils of Chinese during the three-years-famine?
毛可能是中国历史上最邪恶的君主，他在文化大革命中干了许多可怕的事。但是你认为说他在3年饥荒中谋杀了2.5-3.5千万中国人公平么？
QUESTION: Mr L, you talked about how the Communists did a better jobthan anyone else could have in ruling China after they came to power,but they also killed enormous numbers of their own people. Do you haveany sense of how many people the Chinese government killed under Mao’srule and, if you do not have a sense for the number, do you think itwas more or less, say, than Hitler?
Well, we are talking about two countries with a great difference inpopulation, you know, so you would have to say, like, you would have topro-rate it, but to me that is not the only significant thing; there isa qualitative difference."
Hitler believed in the rule — world domination by a master race. Maodid not believe in any sort of master race or master country. Once, in1964, when he received delegations from 16 African countries who werestill fighting for independence — so most of them were from guerrillagroups — he had me come to this meeting and I had no idea why, since ithad to do with Africa, and I found out after I got there the reason hewanted me there was, he wanted to make the point to them that a racistapproach was wrong.
How many people died? Well, the most striking figure I know of is that,in the famine that followed the Great Leap Forward in 1958/59, anestimated between 25 and 35 million people in the countryside starved,partly because of natural disasters, mostly man-made, because of wrongpolicy. And I think the real crime in Mao’s behavior was, not that hewanted people to die, not at all, but the fact that he thought that hehad the right to perform these huge social experiments involvinghundreds of millions of people when he, himself, did not know what theresult was going to be, but he was trying to find a way for China todevelop and to grow prosperous faster. He wanted to do that; he wantedto show the world; so a different kind of thing.
I remember a friend of mine who was an American writer, in 1958 arrivedin Beijing, saw the Great Leap Forward, all the false reports onphenomenal increases in production and so on and immediately wanted towrite a book about it. And Mao told her, “Don’t do it. Wait five years,because we still don’t know what the outcome of this Great Leapbusiness is going to be”. So he knew that he did not know and still hethought that he had the right to go ahead and do it; socialexperimentation. Very different sort of mentality from Hitler orGoebbels.
55 By cina
I am sure you are from mainland China because I am.
我很肯定你来自大陆，因为我也是。
Your mind still stays in the period of WWII in which power can rule theworld. I don’t think China has any chance to develop the same power as Soviet Union did. But the democratic countries had never surrendered to that autocracy like Chinese succumb to their own dictator.
你的思想仍然停留在二战，认为凭力量就能统治整个世界。我不认为中国有任何机会能发展成前苏联那样的实力，但是民主国家绝不会向独裁政府屈服，决不会像中国人自己向他们的独裁者屈服那样。
Don’t have those stupid dreams, hehe
别再做那些愚蠢的梦了，呵呵
56 By cina
Yu’s article is crap. President Hu uses it for his power struggle. Actually, Hu did the exact opposite to what the article said.
Yu的文章是废话。胡主席用他来服务于他得权力，实际上胡做的和文章说的完全相反。
57 By HongXing
Why this anchor called Lou Dobbs of CNN, when mentioning China on hisnews program, he adds the word “Red” in front? Every single instance.Any reason?
为什么这个主持人叫Lou Dobbs of CNN？（没明白…）当他在新闻中提及中国的时候，他在前面加“红色“这个词了么？举个例子如何。还有其它疑问么？
Name me any anchor in CCTV that adds “imperialist” or any similar descriptors when mentioning the US?
能给我个CCTV主持人的名字，在他提到美国的时候加了帝国主义或者相似的词么
58 By Bao
“Why this anchor called Lou Dobbs of CNN, when mentioning China on his news program, he adds the word “Red” in front? Every single instance. Any reason?”
57 By HongXing
Because we all hate China HX, especially the people like me, part of the Agency (CIA), I hope you will excuse us, we were brainwashed when we were young…
因为我们**HX，尤其是像我这种属于CIA的人，我希望你能原谅我们，我们很小时就被洗脑了…
We are working very hard everyday to destroy China, I hope you understand at least our goal.
我们每天很努力地去破坏中国，我希望你至少明白我们的目标。
China should die!
中国应该去死！
And crumble upon a ton of printed papers, printed by CNN of course.
一吨已印好的、碎了的纸上，当然印着CNN的字样（没明白….）
Mouhahahahahahaha! (evil laugh)…
Mouhahahahahahaha!（邪恶的笑声）。。。。
January 14, 2009 @ 3:08 am | Comment
59 By cina1
Chinese is wired. They are ashamed of being called Red even thought heir own flag is made of red and their rulers claim that they are communist party and struggle to realize communism.
中国人生活在铁丝网之中。 尽管中国的国旗是红色的，而且中国的统治者声称他们是共产党，在为实现共产主义而奋斗，但是中国人却为被称为红色而感到羞耻。（由redflag修改）
Actually, in their mind, they already admit that communist is evil. But they want to cooperate with dictators to fool themselves.
实际上，在他们的思想里，他们实际上已经承认共产主义是魔鬼。但是他们要与独裁者合作好愚弄自己。
60 By cina
No American will call the US imperialist. Chinese tend to call the USby that name especially for those worshiping Chairman Mao a lot. Even in their own official politics and history textbooks which are pure propaganda crap, they use imperialist for the US during Chairman Mao’sruling. Now they use ‘hegemonism’ to describe the US’s role in the world. They describe the US as a terrible country hated by almost any other countries in the world except some countries like Japan which they say they are just puppet government of the US.
美国人不会称呼美国为帝国主义。中国人可能这样称呼，尤其是那些崇拜毛的人。甚至在他们那些充满废话、纯粹宣传的官方政治和历史课本中，也只在毛主席统治时期才用帝国主义称呼美国。现在他们用霸权主义来描述美国在世界中的角色。他们把美国描述成一个被除了像日本之外，世界上所有国家都讨厌的恐怖国家，至于日本，他们说它是美国的傀儡政府。
What a joke
真是好笑
61 By bert
Going from “silly questions” to “lynching”? haha
话题从“愚蠢的问题”换到了“私刑”？
62 By yourfriend
Actually, in their mind, they already admit that communist is evil. Butthey want to cooperate with dictators to fool themselves.
实际上，在他们的思想里，他们实际上已经承认共产主义是魔鬼。但是他们要与独裁者合作好愚弄自己。（这应该是引用前面cina的话）
You’re an idiot. Just shut up already.
你是个白痴，闭上你的嘴。
No American will call the US imperialist. Chinese tend to call the USby that name especially for those worshiping Chairman Mao a lot. Evenin their own official politics and history textbooks which are purepropaganda crap, they use imperialist for the US during Chairman Mao’sruling. Now they use ‘hegemonism’ to describe the US’s role in theworld. They describe the US as a terrible country hated by almost anyother countries in the world except some countries like Japan whichthey say they are just puppet government of the US.
60 By cina
It’s really not far from the truth. Imperialism = Iraq and annihilation of Native Americans. The only country with a majority pro-America are Japan and Korea.
事实上，美国离真正的帝国主义也不远，比如伊拉克的事以及对美洲本地土著的灭绝行为。只有日本和韩国的大多数人亲美。
63 By cina
Please keep fooling yourself
请停止愚弄你自己。
64 By Bao
Nobody is taking him seriously anyway, do not worry about him Cina. But do not muzzle him.. yet… it’s fun to watch and read
没有人对他认真过，不要太在意Cina。但是也别让他不说话，看他的表现也是一种娱乐。
The funny thing about you cina, is that you sound genuine. I had doubts at the beginning, but the way you express yourself and the ideas you bring, are just too familiar.
Cina，你最有趣的是，你听上去很诚恳的样子。我从一开始就怀疑了，但是你表述你自己的方式和你的想法是如此的熟悉。
Very happy to finally have somebody from the mainland speaks his mind out. Refreshing I would say.
非常高兴最后还有来自大陆的人说出他的想法，这是让人高兴。
65 By
Message to yourfriend: You are a minority
给yourfriend：你是一个少数派。
Should I repeat it again?
我是否该再次重复它？
66 By Bao
“I opened my first blog by chance. At that time, I didn’t even know how to type with computer… Yang Jia’s mother Wang Jingmei, a very honest person, she tried to open a blog, but was forced to close down… You can see that blog is a very great invention. Words written can become a threat that stirs up so much anxiety. Blog is the most powerful weapon in one’s life. Blog is the best thing given to human being. This is a loose form of civil society before we have genuine democracy and more organized civil society. It will lead us to a great new world. I respect all those who insist to blog.”
“我偶然开了我的第一个博客，那时，我甚至不知道怎样用电脑打字…Yang Jia的母亲Wang Jingmei 是一个很正直的人，她试图开一个博客，但是被迫关闭了…你知道博客是一个非常伟大的发明。写下来的文字能成为威胁，煽动起许多焦虑的情绪（估计是说对政府是威胁）。博客是一个人的人生中最重要的武器。博客是人类最好的东西。在我们拥有真正的民主和更有组织的公民社会之前，这就是公民社会自由的形式。它将引导我们去一个新世界。我尊重那些坚持写博客的人。”
Good luck yourfriend, in 2009.
Yourfriend 祝你2009好运求真务实
67 By Imitation Crabmeat
By the way. About our net friend “Cina”, here is a collection of his quotes:
顺便说一句，有关我们的网友“cina”，下面是他的言论集：
The normal Chinese people are just slaves of those dictators. They don’t have their own thoughts
普通的中国人都是独裁者的奴隶，他们自己没有思想.
There is no culture enlightenment in China, most Chinese are just peasants.
那儿没有任何文明之光，中国人都是乡下人。
The best strategy is to use one group of Chinese to fight against another.
最好的战略是让一些中国人反对另外一些中国人。（以夷制夷啊）
And his moniker “Cina” is a vocal approximation to “Zhina” or “Shina”,which is widely considered an offensive term for Chinese people used by the Japanese during WWII.
并且他得绰号“cina”发音接近“Zhina” 或者 “Shina”，这两个词是二战期间日本人广泛用来称呼中国人的歧视语。
Now he admits he’s Chinese and lived in China, why would he deliberately pick a moniker that is offensive to the Chinese?
现在他承认他是中国人，还住在中国，为什么他还使用一个攻击中国人的绰号呢.
Richard, please look into it.
Richard，请注意下这个。
68 By cina
I am a Chinese. But I think the problem of China today is the result oftheir own deep rooted bad nature. We should not blame merely on thedictators. I use that name to remind me that Chinese should changethemselves, their ugly nature. Otherwise there is no bright futureahead.
我是一个中国人。但是我认为中国今天的问题源自他们的天然劣根性。我们不应当仅仅责备那些独裁者。我使用这个id是为了提醒我，中国人应该从自己做起，改变他们丑陋劣根性，否则他们将没有任何光明的未来。
Maybe I use some harsh words to make you feel uncomfortable. Sorry about that.
也许我一些刺耳的用词让你不舒服，对此感到抱歉
69 By Bao
Because he’s not living here anymore (as he said).
因为他再也不住在这儿了（像他说的那样）
You’d be surprised how much his thinking is actually reflecting what people think here. It’s harsh, crude, very rough and not very well elaborated, but it’s definitively echoing what many people have to say here in China. As as White (who knows about that, except yourfriend) trash foreigner, I can confirm first hand that what he’s saying is not BS.
你应该感到惊奇，到底他的想法有多少实际上反映了这儿的人的想法。这些想法是刺耳的、粗鲁的、粗略的并且描述不清楚，但是这却反应了这儿许多人的想法。像白种的垃圾外国人（除yourfriend外，谁都知道），我能第一手确认他的说法没有BS（大意…）。
And it’s not fitting in your agenda and your unified vision of China.
并且这与你议事表上和你一元化视角的中国并不一样。
Unpleasant isn’t?
对此感到不高兴？`
Boycott Oxygen! It’s allowing people to speak out and live!
联合抵制氧气吧！因为它可以使人说话并活着！
70 By yourfriend
I am a Chinese. But I think the problem of China today is the result of their own deep rooted bad nature. We should not blame merely on the dictators. I use that name to remind me that Chinese should change themselves, their ugly nature. Otherwise there is no bright future ahead.
这段是引用前面68，cina的回复
我是一个中国人。但是我认为中国今天的问题源自他们的天然劣根性。我们不应当仅仅责备那些独裁者。我使用这个id是为了提醒我，中国人应该从自己做起，改变他们丑陋劣根性，否则他们将没有任何光明的未来。
You might be descended from a long-line of classless and despicable whores and illiterate peasants, but most of us have respectablebloodlines. Don’t project your generations of failed humanity upon therest of us. If you are so depressed about your state, I would suggestthat you relieve the world of your existence.
你的祖上也许是一个低级、卑劣的**和一个没受过教育的乡下人，但是我们大多数都是有着尊贵的血统。不要把你那些失败的人性扔给我们，如果你对自己的现状（国家？）是如此的绝望，那么我建议你先拯救自己的生活（大意..）
71 By yourfriend
deleted
已删除
72 By Bao
“It comes as no surprise that your predictions 10 years before or after today were or are crap.”
这并不奇怪，无论是你10年之前的预言还是以后的，全是废话。（应该是引用yourfriend的话）
I don’t think you really want to argue with me on this point… ;)
我不认为你真想和我讨论这一点…
73 By yourfriend
Why? Because your ego will be injured in the process? Everything you’ve “predicted” about China has fallen flat.
为啥？是因为这个过程中你的自尊心会受到伤害？你所预言的有关中国的每一件事都失败了。
74 By Bao
Really ? Give me some example
真的吗？给我几个例子
75 By Bao
Like the lowered expectations about the GDP? Or is it about the unrest that could be triggered by the crisis, or is it about the Economic War scenario that is just unfolding before your own eyes?
比如GDP的增速降低？或者是即将被这种危机所引发的动荡？或者是那些没在你眼前发生的经济战争？
Or is it about the forthcoming alliance between China, south America and Russia?
或者是即将面临的中国、南美洲和俄罗斯之间的联盟？
Or is it about the fact that China is heading for a major ecological disaster very soon?
或者是有关中国不久就将成为最主要的生态破坏者这样的事实？
I’m tired, I will stop here for tonight, but I will let you pick your choice about my false predictions.
我太累了，今晚到此为止，你可以继续选择那些我错误的预言。
Have fun.
祝玩的愉快
76 By Bao
Roll back on this blog, and see when I was speaking about these things, way before everybody was even paying attention to this.
回到这个博客，看看当我讨论这些事情的时候所用的方法，每个人应该多留意下这个（大意….）
There is a reason why. I’ll let you guess why. My clown friend.
这就是为什么我让你猜为什么的原因，我的小丑朋友
77 By yourfriend
Like the lowered expectations about the GDP? Or is it about the unrestthat could be triggered by the crisis, or is it about the Economic Warscenario that is just unfolding before your own eyes?
75 By Bao
The CCP itself has predicted lower GDP growth in 2009. America is actually going to *contract*. Even more than Japan. This is even considering their growing population, and the fact that it’s the CIA and pro-American sources making these estimates. As for the growing unrest, it’s the same thing you hear every year from American masturbators. Economic war, America has been waging economic war on the entire world for decades. The only difference now is that everyone else is fighting back
中国共产党自己也预测GDP增速2009将减缓。美国事实上还会衰退。日本更惨。这甚至考虑到了他们增加的人口，并且事实是这个估计是来自CIA和那些亲美的消息资料。而局面逐渐动荡，你每年都可以从美国意淫者嘴里听到相同的话语。至于经济战争，美国已经在全世界发动了10来年了，现在唯一不同的是其他人都在反击。
Or is it about the forthcoming alliance between China, south America and Russia?
75 By Bao
You’re forgetting Africa, and the Middle East, and Central Asia, and possibly Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea, possiblyAustralia, maybe Europe, and Southeast Asia.
你忘记了非洲、中东、中亚和可能的日本、台湾、香港、新加坡和韩国，也许还有澳大利亚，说不定还有欧洲，东南亚。
Or is it about the fact that China is heading for a major ecological disaster very soon?
75 By Bao
People said that 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc. There are water shortages, lots of chemical pollution, desertification. Major, but not fatal. America, on the other hand, has consumed itself and other countries into wastelands.
人们10年前、20年前已经这样说了，像水资源短缺，许多化学污染，土地荒漠化但是还不致命等，另一方面，美国自己仍在大手大脚的消费，而其它国家越发贫乏。 |
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狗仔卡
发表于 2009-2-17 04:44
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发表于 2009-2-17 06:14
发表于 2009-2-17 07:26
